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Other Topics => Completely Off-Topic => Topic started by: BWilli on November 03, 2004, 08:42:12 am
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word has it that Kerry has conceded...what a damn close race...
http://www.comcast.net/News/DOMESTIC//XML/1131_Presidential/ed83c9ac-a8ba-479c-abf0-ac4c0dd4a2e5.html
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Come on people, it's not like we all didn't see this one coming. This election was over way before Nov. 2nd.
If you don't like the way Dubya runs things in this country, then don't whine and bitch about it, move your ass to Canada.
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Come on people, it's not like we all didn't see this one coming. This election was over way before Nov. 2nd.
If you don't like the way Dubya runs things in this country, then don't whine and bitch about it, move your ass to Canada.
I'd give you SO many rep points for that if we had them on this board.
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Good. With the popular vote in favor of Bush, Kerry SHOULD conceed. Even if he by some miracle won OH. I still believe in the popular vote.
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Come on people, it's not like we all didn't see this one coming. This election was over way before Nov. 2nd.
If you don't like the way Dubya runs things in this country, then don't whine and bitch about it, move your ass to Canada.
Right, because leaving is the only answer.
Thats pussy bullshit right there, and all the people that voted to keep bush in will understand when the economy continues to fail, and we end up the laughing stock of the nation.
geez.
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If you don't like the way Dubya runs things in this country, then don't whine and bitch about it, move your ass to Canada.
Looks like that's exactly what's gonna happen to me.... my mom is SEETHING right now.....she's like, "OH great...this can't get ANY worse. If this *insert bleep here* continues, we're so moving to canada and OVER MY *BLEEP* DEAD BODY ARE YOU AND YOUR BROTHER GETTING DRAFTED......IF he calls for another draft"
*hides in a corner and sings softly*
O caaanadaaaa....OOOO Canadaaaaa :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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...and all the people that voted to keep bush in will understand when the economy continues to fail, and we end up the laughing stock of the nation.
geez.
"That's pussy bullshit right there"
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...and all the people that voted to keep bush in will understand when the economy continues to fail, and we end up the laughing stock of the nation.
geez.
"That's pussy bullshit right there"
You just wait and see. You're talking about people backing out and leaving your country because of some dimwitted texan who choked on a pretzel. Stand and fight like a man.
(read the other thing wrong)
Didn't you say you voted Kerry?
what the fuck, hypocrite
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This sucks balls yo....Well..... I agree with Fairy. Maybe America needs a nice kick in the ass. I'm HIGHLY anti- Bush.......
however this is a nice kick in the ass that's getting me sent to CANADA!!! I REALLY don't think my mom was kidding about that.....
*ooooh Canada OOO Canada....*
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This sucks balls yo....Well..... I agree with Fairy. Maybe America needs a nice kick in the ass. I'm HIGHLY anti- Bush.......
however this is a nice kick in the ass that's getting me sent to CANADA!!! I REALLY don't think my mom was kidding about that.....
*ooooh Canada OOO Canada....*
It's sad that america sees that as a way out
Yeah, we might have to work extra hard to salvage what is ours.. but I believe lots of women and minorities should be prepared to lose a dozen or so rights.
Here we go, another 4 years!
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You just wait and see. You're talking about backing out and leaving your country because of some dimwitted texan who choked on a pretzel. Stand and fight like a man.
Honey, let me tell you something, I love this country although I don't agree with everything Bush does. I really don't give a shit about Bush or Kerry. This election was total joke, everyone knew that Bush would win. The conservatives for the most part are very please with the job he did from '00 to '04. Add in the gay marriage factor and abortion banning, you've got 4 more years of Bush. Gee, just accept it.
Bush IS president, quit bitching and whining about economics, as you see, 51% of the voters like the way this country is going or just really hated John Kerry. If Bush bothers you that much, why not just get the hell out? No one is forcing you to stay here, sweetie.
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Looks like it's Bush then :? I've been watching CNN & BBC World for an hour (what is it with those two channels that make them so addictive? i've been watching them so much it almost felt like this was my own election!) and they both say Kerry will make a concession speech in about an hour. I feel so sorry for him and for the rest of the world... yes, including myself
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Didn't you say you voted Kerry?
what the fuck, hypocrite
No, I did not. I live in Georgia. Where there was abosolutely no point in voting Kerry. Bush swept this State, as predicted.
So, I used to the write-in portion of the ballot and I voted Hilary Duff.
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This sucks balls yo....Well..... I agree with Fairy. Maybe America needs a nice kick in the ass. I'm HIGHLY anti- Bush.......
however this is a nice kick in the ass that's getting me sent to CANADA!!! I REALLY don't think my mom was kidding about that.....
*ooooh Canada OOO Canada....*
It's sad that america sees that as a way out
Yeah, we might have to work extra hard to salvage what is ours.. but I believe lots of women and minorities should be prepared to lose a dozen or so rights.
Here we go, another 4 years!
yeah it really is sad. Americans should be proud to be citizens, and now it looks like giving up your citizenship is the only way to avoid things being totally fucked for you and your family and stuff.
I have a BAAAAD feeling about these next four years....
What Dubbya just proved with this election, is that FEAR can get you elected. If only people knew how bad they have it right now WITH him being elected.
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You just wait and see. You're talking about backing out and leaving your country because of some dimwitted texan who choked on a pretzel. Stand and fight like a man.
Honey, let me tell you something, I love this country although I don't agree with everything Bush does. I really don't give a shit about Bush or Kerry. This election was total joke, everyone knew that Bush would win. The conservatives for the most part are very please with the job he did from '00 to '04. Add in the gay marriage factor and abortion banning, you've got 4 more years of Bush. Gee, just accept it.
Bush IS president, quit bitching and whining about economics, as you see, 51% of the voters like the way this country is going or just really hated John Kerry. If Bush bothers you that much, why not just get the hell out? No one is forcing you to stay here, sweetie.
First of all, I'm not your sweetie or your honey.
I could care less who the fucking president of the united states is, but I'd rather it be someone capable of public speaking, and proper chewing and swallowing.
I'm not whining or bitching about the economy, I'm prepared to watch it go to hell and back.
Clinton '08!
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Didn't you say you voted Kerry?
what the fuck, hypocrite
No, I did not. I live in Georgia. Where there was abosolutely no point in voting Kerry. Bush swept this State, as predicted.
So, I used to the write-in portion of the ballot and I voted Hilary Duff.
I don't believe you.
You're a sheep.
edit: and I mean that in the nicest way!
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If you don't like the way Dubya runs things in this country, then don't whine and bitch about it, move your ass to Canada.
Are you on drugs?
Seriously. To quote one of my favorite musicians "Protest is patriotism."
Not liking a TEMPORARY administration is not a reason to leave. It's a reason to DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
if you voted, you have every right to complain.
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I cried, lol.
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I could care less who the fucking president of the united states is, but I'd rather it be someone capable of public speaking, and proper chewing and swallowing.
*yawn*
My body is about as tired as that same drivel.
I'm not whining or bitching about the economy, I'm prepared to watch it go to hell and back.
Yes, of course. This country is going hell :roll: They said that during both Clinton adminstrations, and Bush's '00-'04 term. *puts on gasoline underwear, jumps into flames*
Clinton '08!
I will agree with you there, I would vote for Hillary Clinton in '08. Much to the chargin of BV.
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Looks like it's Bush then :? I've been watching CNN & BBC World for an hour (what is it with those two channels that make them so addictive? i've been watching them so much it almost felt like this was my own election!) and they both say Kerry will make a concession speech in about an hour. I feel so sorry for him and for the rest of the world... yes, including myself
I agree with you
and I know! those channels glue you! I kept flipping from one to the other lol
anyways, this thread is cool, don´t u just love heated arguments?? haha :lol: :D
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Looks like it's Bush then :? I've been watching CNN & BBC World for an hour (what is it with those two channels that make them so addictive? i've been watching them so much it almost felt like this was my own election!) and they both say Kerry will make a concession speech in about an hour. I feel so sorry for him and for the rest of the world... yes, including myself
I agree with you
and I know! those channels glue you! I kept flipping from one to the other lol
anyways, this thread is cool, don´t u just love heated arguments?? haha :lol: :D
This isn't a heated arguement.
This is me, needing a heating pad, and waiting for the day that my ovaries stop producing eggs.
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Are you on drugs?
I'm high on reality. Seriously, all the whining isn't going to do anything.
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*judo chop*
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I'd rather have Bush as a president than Kerry, but not because I like him more. I just dislike him less.
And Protest may be Patriotism or whatever it was that was said, but I'm sick of the bitching. The CONSTANT bitching.
There was also a part of me that wanted Bush to lose simply so I wouldn't have to listen to people BITCH for the next four years.
Besides the fact that people have gotten so freaking worked up about this election that it wouldn't shock me if someone pulled a Lee Harvey Oswald. Which would be unfortunate, no one needs to DIE over this.
Don't sit around shooting your mouth off about Bush. If it's such a big deal to you, get up and get active. Doing what, I don't know. But get active with Bush protests or whatever it is that makes you happy. Sitting around and complaining on a message board won't change anything.
:headshake:
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I'd rather have Bush as a president than Kerry, but not because I like him more. I just dislike him less.
And Protest may be Patriotism or whatever it was that was said, but I'm sick of the bitching. The CONSTANT bitching.
There was also a part of me that wanted Bush to lose simply so I wouldn't have to listen to people BITCH for the next four years.
Besides the fact that people have gotten so freaking worked up about this election that it wouldn't shock me if someone pulled a Lee Harvey Oswald. Which would be unfortunate, no one needs to DIE over this.
Don't sit around shooting your mouth off about Bush. If it's such a big deal to you, get up and get active. Doing what, I don't know. But get active with Bush protests or whatever it is that makes you happy. Sitting around and complaining on a message board won't change anything.
:headshake:
voting against him isn´t getting active enough?
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Here we go, another 4 years!
let the next four years from hell begin.
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I'd rather have Bush as a president than Kerry, but not because I like him more. I just dislike him less.
And Protest may be Patriotism or whatever it was that was said, but I'm sick of the bitching. The CONSTANT bitching.
There was also a part of me that wanted Bush to lose simply so I wouldn't have to listen to people BITCH for the next four years.
Besides the fact that people have gotten so freaking worked up about this election that it wouldn't shock me if someone pulled a Lee Harvey Oswald. Which would be unfortunate, no one needs to DIE over this.
Don't sit around shooting your mouth off about Bush. If it's such a big deal to you, get up and get active. Doing what, I don't know. But get active with Bush protests or whatever it is that makes you happy. Sitting around and complaining on a message board won't change anything.
:headshake:
voting against him isn´t getting active enough?
honestly? no it's not...if you really want someone to win, you need to voice your opinion and try to sway people who might be undecided, or even try to convert someone to the other party
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Didn't you say you voted Kerry?
what the fuck, hypocrite
No, I did not. I live in Georgia. Where there was abosolutely no point in voting Kerry. Bush swept this State, as predicted.
So, I used to the write-in portion of the ballot and I voted Hilary Duff.
Did you actually vote for anything? Or was it pointless to even go to the polls? *waits for Keith to actually care about something* :)
tylor
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I'd rather have Bush as a president than Kerry, but not because I like him more. I just dislike him less.
And Protest may be Patriotism or whatever it was that was said, but I'm sick of the bitching. The CONSTANT bitching.
There was also a part of me that wanted Bush to lose simply so I wouldn't have to listen to people BITCH for the next four years.
Besides the fact that people have gotten so freaking worked up about this election that it wouldn't shock me if someone pulled a Lee Harvey Oswald. Which would be unfortunate, no one needs to DIE over this.
Don't sit around shooting your mouth off about Bush. If it's such a big deal to you, get up and get active. Doing what, I don't know. But get active with Bush protests or whatever it is that makes you happy. Sitting around and complaining on a message board won't change anything.
:headshake:
voting against him isn´t getting active enough?
honestly? no it's not...if you really want someone to win, you need to voice your opinion and try to sway people who might be undecided, or even try to convert someone to the other party
that´s was before the election and from what I saw on the news,(I´m not there to see for myself, so correct me if I´m wrong :oops: ) that was done as much as possible, but the way you´re saying "If it's such a big deal to you, get up and get active" sounds like you´re suggesting some post-election activism and lol I have no idea how could that happen :razz:
blah, this is pointless :P
*inserts subltle change of subject*
so the weather is nice, isnt it?! :P :lol:
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Ugh, Bush again? *sigh*.....
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Oh, happy days are here again!
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I'd rather have Bush as a president than Kerry, but not because I like him more. I just dislike him less.
And Protest may be Patriotism or whatever it was that was said, but I'm sick of the bitching. The CONSTANT bitching.
There was also a part of me that wanted Bush to lose simply so I wouldn't have to listen to people BITCH for the next four years.
Besides the fact that people have gotten so freaking worked up about this election that it wouldn't shock me if someone pulled a Lee Harvey Oswald. Which would be unfortunate, no one needs to DIE over this.
Don't sit around shooting your mouth off about Bush. If it's such a big deal to you, get up and get active. Doing what, I don't know. But get active with Bush protests or whatever it is that makes you happy. Sitting around and complaining on a message board won't change anything.
:headshake:
voting against him isn´t getting active enough?
honestly? no it's not...if you really want someone to win, you need to voice your opinion and try to sway people who might be undecided, or even try to convert someone to the other party
that´s was before the election and from what I saw on the news,(I´m not there to see for myself, so correct me if I´m wrong :oops: ) that was done as much as possible, but the way you´re saying "If it's such a big deal to you, get up and get active" sounds like you´re suggesting some post-election activism and lol I have no idea how could that happen :razz:
blah, this is pointless :P
*inserts subltle change of subject*
so the weather is nice, isnt it?! :P :lol:
people will still be protesting now that the election is over anyway. i think amberbeads point was that there is no point for everyone to be bitching and moaning on this board. it doesn't help the cause
and the weather is fine today :D
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people will still be protesting now that the election is over anyway. i think amberbeads point was that there is no point for everyone to be bitching and moaning on this board. it doesn't help the cause
Just because it 'doesn't help the cause' doesn't give us a reason NOT to complain about it. And Natalie, i would really love to know how you propose people overseas 'get up and get active'- vote? protest? We have to suffer your president and his religious fundamentalism for another 4 years and there's nothing we can do about it.
You know, i really thought that for once America would make the right choice, and not let the rest of the world down as a consequence but here we are- and you've done it again.
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people will still be protesting now that the election is over anyway. i think amberbeads point was that there is no point for everyone to be bitching and moaning on this board. it doesn't help the cause
Just because it 'doesn't help the cause' doesn't give us a reason NOT to complain about it. And Natalie, i would really love to know how you propose people overseas 'get up and get active'- vote? protest? We have to suffer your president and his religious fundamentalism for another 4 years and there's nothing we can do about it.
You know, i really thought that for once America would make the right choice, and not let the rest of the world down as a consequence but here we are- and you've done it again.
You know what, Rosie? I have no damn idea. But not everyone in America voted for Bush. And therefore not ALL of America is to blame for this. I didn't vote for Bush; I can't vote. So guess what? Those here in America who didn't vote for Bush have to suffer him and his religious fundamentalism for another 4 years and there's nothing we can do about it.
But when was the last time sitting around and trash talking someone got us anywhere? :roll:
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people will still be protesting now that the election is over anyway. i think amberbeads point was that there is no point for everyone to be bitching and moaning on this board. it doesn't help the cause
Just because it 'doesn't help the cause' doesn't give us a reason NOT to complain about it.
i didn't say you can't complain....i was stating the AMBERBEADS point was that it is silly to complain about it on this board...
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Iraq Tops President Bush's Policy Goal
1 hour, 41 minutes ago White House - AP
By The Associated Press
President Bush (news - web sites) heads into his second term with the stabilization of Iraq (news - web sites) under a democratic government as his top policy goal. But he also has unfinished domestic business, including making his sweeping tax cuts permanent, reforming Social Security (news - web sites), and promoting energy production.
Here is a summary of his plans:
IRAQ-TERRORISM
Bush intends to keep a U.S. presence in Iraq until the country is stable and run by a democratically elected government. He has offered no timeline for withdrawing U.S. forces but does plan to seek additional help from other countries in securing Iraq while it is rebuilt. He has ruled out instituting a draft to bolster the U.S. military should the Iraq situation worsen or drag on.
Bush is not likely to abandon his policy of pre-emptive action against potential threats to the United States. But with Iraq still a big uncertainty, it is not clear whether Bush will devote a greater share of his second-term attention to the worldwide dragnet for Osama bin Laden (news - web sites).
Comprehensive restructuring of U.S. military forces overseas, begun in Bush's first term, is likely to continue. But it is doubtful that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld will stick around to see that effort through. If Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) departs as expected, Bush will have to select a new top diplomat.
TAXES
Bush pledged to work in a second term to get Congress to make permanent the $1.9 trillion in tax cuts over a decade that he won in his first term. Most of the reductions, including elimination of the estate tax, are schedule to end after 2010. The 10-year cost of extending all of Bush tax cuts has been put at more than $1 trillion.
He also pledged to overhaul the tax code in a second term. His first step will be to appoint a commission to recommend the best way to revamp the tax system. He has not spelled out what alterations he would prefer, but some Republican conservatives are campaigning to scrap the current income tax and replace it with a national sales tax.
JOBS
There are about 821,000 fewer jobs in the country than when Bush took office in January 2001. Bush says he can spur economic growth and create jobs by making permanent his four rounds of tax cuts so people could keep and spend more of the money they earn. He says simplifying the tax code will encourage saving and investment, and he pledges to stop frivolous lawsuits that he claims divert money businesses could spend on new jobs. Bush plans to create "opportunity zones" to spur investment in needy communities through tax benefits. He promises to increase federal funding for research and development, and to restrain overall federal spending.
SOCIAL SECURITY
Bush wants to let younger workers divert some of their payroll taxes, which fund retirees' Social Security benefits, into personal investment accounts similar to a 401(k). He promises that benefits will not be cut for current retirees or people nearing retirement. He has not provided details on how such a system would work or be financed. Experts widely agree that allowing investment accounts could cost $2 trillion or more.
OIL-ENERGY
At a time of soaring oil prices, Bush is expected to continue promoting new energy production and press Congress for laws that encourage development of traditional fossil energy sources — oil, coal and natural gas.
He also is likely to renew his call for Congress to allow oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Environmentalists strongly oppose drilling there.
Look for a continued effort to make it easier to develop oil and gas on federal land. He will push Congress to require reliability standards for power lines and provide incentives for new power line construction. But he opposes enacting federal requirements for utilities to use renewable fuels, arguing that should be up to the states.
His hands-off policy on energy prices is expected to continue. And he is likely to continue pumping oil into the government's Strategic Petroleum Reserve and reject calls to use the government oil except to counter a major supply disruption.
ENVIRONMENT
Bush's top environmental priority is to rewrite air pollution laws and regulations. His agenda could be overshadowed by an international climate treaty taking effect without U.S. participation.
He hopes finally to persuade Congress to pass his stalled "Clear Skies" plan for curtailing power plant pollution but not emissions of carbon dioxide, the main greenhouse gas linked to global warming.
Tough court fights loom on his easing of rules that require older industrial plants and refineries to add pollution controls if they expand. Under court order, the EPA is due to introduce by March the first national cap on mercury emissions.
Bush plans to cut spending on low-interest loans for local clean water projects and to seek more federal support for development of a hydrogen-fueled car.
He also wants to overturn a Clinton-era ban on 58 million acres of roadless areas and allow logging and road-building in them unless governors petition the federal government to preserve them. He would keep Yellowstone National Park open to snowmobiling, despite a challenge in federal court.
EDUCATION
Bush wants to expand No Child Left Behind, the most aggressive federal shake-up of education in a generation. The law — central to Bush's domestic agenda in his first term — orders schools to make yearly progress among all groups of students or risk penalties.
The president wants to require states to test students annually in reading and math in grades three through 11, two more years of testing in high school than now required.
This is part of Bush's plan to shift more attention to the upper grades and college to ensure students are better prepared for work. But he is sure to face continued criticism that, despite regular spending increases, he has not put enough federal money into schools.
The Bush administration has shown no interest in adjusting the education law before its renewal date in 2007, although his Education Department says it will adjust enforcement as needed.
A Bush presidency also ensures the government will keep promoting private-school vouchers, as it did in winning the first federal school vouchers, for the District of Columbia. Bush has a backlog of issues waiting for him, from Head Start to higher education.
HEALTH
Bush wants to expand tax breaks for lower-income Americans who buy their own insurance and for those who purchase high-deductible policies and have health savings accounts, which are tax-free investments that can be used for health expenses.
Bush also favors allowing small businesses in different states to band together to offer insurance to workers.
The president is stepping up efforts to enroll uninsured children in government-paid health care programs.
Republicans will renew their push to limit medical malpractice awards, which they argue drive up health care costs through fast-rising malpractice insurance rates and the practice of defensive medicine.
Bush also may seek again to alter the way the federal government pays its share of the Medicaid program for the poor. The president wants to give states broad new authority to cut or increase benefits and add or drop patients. States that choose to participate would get a pot of money to provide health care to some of their neediest residents and unprecedented discretion over how to spend it.
INTELLIGENCE-HOMELAND SECURITY
Bush has promised to improve security for ports, borders, transportation and critical infrastructure, particularly by staying on the offense against terrorists.
Odds are Homeland Security Department Secretary Tom Ridge won't stay in that post and may head to the private sector.
At the CIA (news - web sites), Republican Porter Goss, who left the House to become director in late September, is expected to stay. Goss wants to expand the agency's clandestine service, improve language capabilities and encourage risk-taking by intelligence analysts and operatives. But his Republican credentials have some Democrats concerned about his ability to keep the agency independent of political influence.
Down the road, Bush may have a key intelligence opening to fill. Congress wasn't able to agree on intelligence-reform legislation before the election, but lawmakers might eventually create a National Intelligence Director to oversee the government's intelligence agencies. Goss might seek a promotion, but many aren't ruling out that Bush could select someone else.
JUSTICE
Bush wants the Patriot Act renewed in its entirety and has fought any limits on it, arguing that it is vital in detecting and disrupting terrorists inside U.S. borders. Bush has promised to continue proposing large budget increases for the FBI (news - web sites) and to improve information sharing among all federal law enforcement agencies to guard against terror attacks.
It's unclear whether Bush will ask Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) to stay. If he doesn't, some Republicans are pushing for Bush to nominate Ashcroft's former deputy, Larry Thompson, as the nation's first black attorney general.
SUPREME COURT
During Bush's second administration, one or more of the court's five conservatives will likely retire, opening the first vacancies since 1994. The most likely is Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, who is 80 and was recently diagnosed with thyroid cancer. If Bush chose to elevate Justice Sandra Day O'Connor (news - web sites), she would become the first woman chief justice. The 74-year-old O'Connor, however, may be a retirement prospect herself. Bush also might use any vacancy to give the court its first Hispanic member.
The other conservative justices — Antonin Scalia (news - web sites), Anthony M. Kennedy and Clarence Thomas (news - web sites) — are less likely to leave. One question mark is Justice John Paul Stevens (news - web sites), at age 84 the oldest of the nine justices and leader of its liberal wing. A Stevens retirement would give Bush an opportunity to make the court more conservative on issues like capital punishment and abortion. Bush also must choose a new lawyer to represent the government before the court. Theodore Olson resigned as solicitor general over the summer to return to a lucrative private practice.
TRANSPORTATION
Bush is expected to stay the course on transportation policy. He will continue to oppose an increase in the federal gas tax to pay for more highway spending.
Bush will persist in his push to privatize parts of Amtrak and eliminate the passenger railroad's unprofitable long-distance lines.
The Federal Aviation Administration (news - web sites) has said it will come up with a plan to replace air traffic controllers nearing retirement, though it is unclear where the funding will come from. Similarly, Bush's cuts to FAA (news - web sites) spending on facilities and equipment may slow the pace of air traffic control modernization.
The only Democratic member of Bush's cabinet, Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta (news - web sites), is not expected to stay. Bush may replace him with FAA Administrator Marion Blakey, Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham (news - web sites) or Labor Secretary Elaine Chao.
HOUSING
Bush wants Congress to pass a tax credit for builders that erect homes affordable to middle-income families. He has also proposed the creation of new "opportunity zones" that would give struggling urban and rural communities priority in receiving economic assistance, education and job training programs and affordable housing.
Increasing homeownership, especially among minorities, is expected to remain a main housing target for Bush. The president in 2002 set a goal of 5.5 million new black and Hispanic homeowners by 2010, and Bush has pointed to rising minority homeownership rates as proof his plans work.
Revamping a voucher program that helps 2 million families — mainly poor — pay rent would remain a priority. HUD officials say they need to streamline costs but give local agencies more control and accountability over the $14.5 billion Section 8 program. Opponents contend the administration is trying to weaken vouchers.
Bush would continue his campaign against chronic homelessness, hoping that increasing funding for permanent housing and services for those who live primarily on the streets frees resources to assist those who are temporarily homeless.
FARM
Bush calls the current farm bill a success. He supports voluntary farm conservation efforts that include tax incentives and seeks to add another 800,000 to acres to the federal Conservation Reserve Program.
The president is seeking to renew Trade Promotion Authority and opposes efforts to label or otherwise restrict sales of genetically engineered food.
Bush seeks to relax the Endangered Species Act to make it more friendly to farmers and ranchers. He supports construction at locks and dams on the Mississippi and Missouri rivers to ship grain more swiftly to Gulf ports for export.
And he proposes to grant legal temporary worker status to millions of undocumented aliens, which would affect farm workers.
FOREIGN AFFAIRS
Bush intends to continue using diplomacy to try to halt North Korea (news - web sites)'s nuclear weapons programs and is ready to offer assurances he would not use force. Negotiations are being conducted jointly with South Korea (news - web sites), Japan, Russia and China.
In the Middle East, Bush has affirmed strong support for Israel and its security but avoided taking stands or providing details on how he intended to advance it or promote agreements between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Bush approved of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites)'s plan to relinquish all of Gaza and to evacuate a handful of Jewish settlements on the West Bank.
Bush has worked for good relations with China. Last December, with visiting Premier Wen Jiabao at his side at the White House, he sent a strong warning to Taiwan not to take any action toward independence and cause dangerous new tensions with Beijing.
In Europe, Bush expanded the NATO (news - web sites) alliance and has sought to patch up differences with Germany and France over the war with Iraq. He plans to withdraw 70,000 troops from Europe and South Korea while reconfiguring U.S. military in Germany with trimmer and faster-moving units.
THERE WILL BE NO DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111one!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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It still doesn't cross my mind that THAT many people are THAT dim-witted. I just don't get WHY someone would vote for Bush. That's just me.
My Writing teacher was all mad this afternoon when she found out that Bush had won. She absolutely LOATHED his No Child Left Behind work of art.
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I did my utmost to be entirely objective throughout the campaign, not to support either side. Looking at it objectively I'm very surprised that Bush has won as easily as he has. I can't explain it, I'm sure any number of political analysts will try to.
Bush started ahead, but ever since the first debate all the polls have said support for Kerry had been growing and growing until it was too close to call, the turnout was high, which was meant to favour Kerry. Where did it go wrong???
I'm not going to go on an anti-Bush rant purely because I don't know enough to do it well. But, I have to say despite being objective, I would have liked Kerry to win, even if it was just to see how he'd do as president.
I heard all the mistakes and bad decisions Bush has made and I'd say if even half of them were true, then yes, he shouldn't be president.
But, surely one of the things that makes it difficult for a challenger is that the voters don't know what they're going to get if they vote him/her in. At least by voting for the person already in power, you know what you're gonna get. Who knows, the other guy might (god forbid) be worse than what you've got already.
Not saying that would have been the case here, pretty sure it wouldn't have been, but you don't know till you've voted him in do you? and by then it's too late....
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Oh, happy days are here again!
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT
Bush is back Baby! :D :D :D :D :D
He never left.
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Oh, happy days are here again!
Someone ban this fucking gimmick please?
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LOL@teh Beev
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/keithrj997/beeveelovinthebushee.jpg)
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I know he didn't leave, but it was a close call *sigh*
Oh, happy days are here again!
Someone ban this fucking gimmick please?
Well, if we can have Klan representation here, why can we have a die hard Bush fan? Or were you for the Giant Douche/Kerry? I'm so sorry. :oops:
Wait, no I'm not.
Suck it up, or get the fuck out of the country. :twisted:
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Sorry, need to make an amendment. You know how that is! :lol:
You could also just add me to that big ass ignore list you got there.
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Come on people, it's not like we all didn't see this one coming. This election was over way before Nov. 2nd.
If you don't like the way Dubya runs things in this country, then don't whine and bitch about it, move your ass to Canada.
O canada...my home and native land............
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I know he didn't leave, but it was a close call *sigh*
Oh, happy days are here again!
Someone ban this fucking gimmick please?
Well, if we can have Klan representation here, why can we have a die hard Bush fan? Or were you for the Giant Douche/Kerry? I'm so sorry. :oops:
Wait, no I'm not.
Suck it up, or get the fuck out of the country. :twisted:
You're an intellectual pygmy.
Get the fuck out of my way you annoying little gnat.
Seriously, you have to be top 10 worst trolls of all time. You're not vaguely funny. You're unoriginal. You're not smart. You're not even THAT bothersome. You're just a minor annoyance.
Thankfully, I have the satisfaction of you someday delivering my pizza.
Fries up little girl.
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You're an intellectual pygmy.
Get the fuck out of my way you annoying little gnat.
Seriously, you have to be top 10 worst trolls of all time. You're not vaguely funny. You're unoriginal. You're not smart. You're not even THAT bothersome. You're just a minor annoyance.
Thankfully, I have the satisfaction of you someday delivering my pizza.
Fries up little girl.
Well Andrew, why not put her on your ignore list? Simply don't read the posts she makes, it's not that hard.
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You're an intellectual pygmy.
Get the fuck out of my way you annoying little gnat.
Seriously, you have to be top 10 worst trolls of all time. You're not vaguely funny. You're unoriginal. You're not smart. You're not even THAT bothersome. You're just a minor annoyance.
Thankfully, I have the satisfaction of you someday delivering my pizza.
Fries up little girl.
Well Andrew, why not put her on your ignore list? Simply don't read the posts she makes, it's not that hard.
SHE is on my ignore list. But that doesn't automatically put all her gimmicks on my ignore list.
Trust me, her gimmick is now.
Most MB's have a permaban as the punishment for a gimmick account. That would be nice.
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DEAR GOD. I mean, honestly, you sooo crushed my feelings. You think you impress me with your amazing skill to use words seventh graders know? Don't make me laugh.
Not that you could, because, Jesus.. you AREN'T funny your damn self. I mean how long did it take you to come up with that biting satirical piece that was the Peanut Butter thread? Whoa, where is your Pulitzer? You totally showed those darn Brits.
Yes, of course I'm not smart. Yep, 90-99 percentile scores on tests in prep school... graduating ahead of my class damn, I must need to be in special ed! And even then I won't be able to work at McDonalds !!!
Yeah, buddy. Don't be bitter. Today is just the beginning of 4 great years.
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You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.
Smartest thing you've ever said.
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You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.
Smartest thing you've ever said.
Now see, that wasn't so hard, was it? May you ignore each other in peace.
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You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.
Smartest thing you've ever said.
Now see, that wasn't so hard, was it? May you ignore each other in peace.
It might be pointed out his quote said "Jessica" and not:
You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.
tylor
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I don't believe the American people are that ignorant. This is sick and disturbing.
Four more years of turning our back?
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If you don't like the way Dubya runs things in this country, then don't whine and bitch about it, move your ass to Canada.
I would, but he'd still hunt my ass down and send me to Iraq to fight his BS war.
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I don't believe the American people are that ignorant. This is sick and disturbing.
Four more years of turning our back?
Well hopefully God is there for us(I'm an Athiest,) because we will need it.
tylor
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I don't believe the American people are that ignorant. This is sick and disturbing.
Four more years of turning our back?
As someone pointed out before, it was just 51% of American people.
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You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.
Smartest thing you've ever said.
Now see, that wasn't so hard, was it? May you ignore each other in peace.
It might be pointed out his quote said "Jessica" and not:
You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.
tylor
Right. THat would be because you can't actually quote someone on your ignore list. You have to actually type out the QUOTE tags.
What point were you trying to make there?
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I don't believe the American people are that ignorant. This is sick and disturbing.
Four more years of turning our back?
As someone pointed out before, it was just 51% of American people.
Unfortunately, that's all that is needed. The 49% that don't like Bush can't stop Bush. Now there will be a Republican Pres, House, and senate.
I think the polls were not correct. But, with that said, I am horribly mad at Kerry for going down without a fight.
Someone tell me where the Bible says it's okay to murder people. This "I'm a Christian" bullshit is horrible. WHY DENY PEOPLE THEIR RIGHTS.
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Someone tell me where the Bible says it's okay to murder people. This "I'm a Christian" bullshit is horrible. WHY DENY PEOPLE THEIR RIGHTS.
Please don't start with that "denying rights" B.S.. It is such garbage.
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You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.
Smartest thing you've ever said.
Now see, that wasn't so hard, was it? May you ignore each other in peace.
It might be pointed out his quote said "Jessica" and not:
You have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.
tylor
Right. THat would be because you can't actually quote someone on your ignore list. You have to actually type out the QUOTE tags.
What point were you trying to make there?
Heh, nobody is on my ignore list. I think I used it once temporarily because someone was severely spamming the boards. That is a good thing to know about that option.
tylor
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Someone tell me where the Bible says it's okay to murder people.
Actaully there are places in the old testement where people are killed in God's name. Even genocide.
tylor
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Try Genesis chapter 22. No one actaully dies, but God tells Abraham to offer his son Issac as a burnt offering. Just before he does, God stops him.
tylor
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THERE WILL BE NO DRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111111one!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Damn straight! :razz:
I look forward to 2008, so that it can be clearly demonstrated that the country, indeed, has not gone to hell after eight years of W.
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I love though how no one who was talking about the draft even addressed that point.
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Four more years.
:(
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I love though how no one who was talking about the draft even addressed that point.
Bush has lied ten million times before, so why should I believe him about the draft? I don't TRUST the man. If after 4 years it turns out he actually told the truth for once, I will humbly admit that I was wrong on this matter.
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I love though how no one who was talking about the draft even addressed that point.
Bush has lied ten million times before, so why should I believe him about the draft? I don't TRUST the man. If after 4 years it turns out he actually told the truth for once, I will humbly admit that I was wrong on this matter.
uhh...
Posted October 6, 2004 – House Republicans Tuesday shot down a bill introduced by Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY) that could have restored the military draft.
It required 18- to 26-year-olds to sign up for two years of military service. But Democrats accused the Republican-controlled House of scheduling the vote at a time it would face certain defeat, during a close presidential race rife with rumors that a draft was eminent if President Bush were to be reelected. The vote tally was an overwhelming 402-2.
“To bring up this bill on the eve of an election is hypocritical and insulting both to the House of Representatives and the men and women in the military,” said Rangel, a Korean War veteran.
“Bringing up this bill today, without hearings, without any formal discussion, is a political maneuver meant to avoid a substantial discussion of the dire needs of our military.”
Rangel had introduced the bill after criticizing the all-volunteer military for putting an unfair burden on lower-income groups, who he said are more likely to join for job training or money to pay for college.
In a lively debate on the House floor, Republicans accused Democrats of deliberately fueling speculation that the White House would reinstitute the draft. Democrats shot back that the Bush administration's conduct of the war has led many Americans to fear that a draft might be necessary to support an overextended military.
Members of Congress had received a flurry of letters and phone calls from their constituents regarding the likelihood of a draft. Their fears were fed by chatter on the Internet that has escalated as fighting intensifies in Iraq and Afghanistan, and as the Pentagon struggles to keep troop deployment at current strengths by extending tours in combat zones and recalling retired soldiers to active duty.
Democratic presidential candidate Sen. John Kerry said Sunday he had no plans to revive the military draft if he were elected. A CBS/MTV poll of 18- to 29-year-olds by found last month that 78 percent of respondents opposed reinstating the draft to provide soldiers for Iraq, while just 18 percent favored it.
So...the bill was introduced by a Democrat...supported by a Democrat...voted on by 2 Democrats, and you all still think Bush is going to reinstate the draft? o_O
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Just a little more info on the "draft bill". The guy who presented it to the House didn't even vote for it! The only 2 representatives who did were Democrats.
One lawmaker spoke in favor of the bill, saying it was time Congress gave some thought to future military manpower needs.
"I believe we have to start looking at this right now," said Representative John Murtha of Pennsylvania, a leading Democrat on military issues. He was joined in backing the bill by Representative Fortney Stark, Democrat of California.
You can find a plethora of information on this by googling "draft bill in house" or something to that effect and it all says the same thing: the bill was put forth as a protest to the war by Democrats because they wanted people to be afraid of a draft. Most Democrats don't want a draft. No Republicans have supported a draft, and all those who have come out against it, including the President and Donald Rumsfeld, have come out STRONGLY against it.
Now one criticism I've read over and over is that people voted for Bush only out of fear, but if the draft was one of your big issue, that's also fear, right? Fear of the draft...which is a non-issue because it's not going to happen.
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:roll: Ugh, even with no draft I don't trust him. So it's a non-issue. Let it go. Let it go.
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I agree with jjthefourth.
I also agree with:
One lawmaker spoke in favor of the bill, saying it was time Congress gave some thought to future military manpower needs.
Not that I favor a draft. But have you ever thought of how, if, we want to continue the way we are, with our current, and most likely Bushes future, plans we might be forced to install a draft? That is one reason I voted for Kerry. I WANT him to be a good ole politician and seek as many political alternatives as possible. Not just run off to war and acted as stupid as he can militarly and politically. I want him to change positions and be just as his job title implies, a politician.
That is why Bush can promise no draft; he doesn't think. I HATE BS. But a politician full of crap is better than a STUPID politician. Hence, the best of two evils.
tylor
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I'm sad Cobb didnt win :cry:
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I agree with jjthefourth.
I also agree with:
One lawmaker spoke in favor of the bill, saying it was time Congress gave some thought to future military manpower needs.
Not that I favor a draft. But have you ever thought of how, if, we want to continue the way we are, with our current, and most likely Bushes future, plans we might be forced to install a draft? That is one reason I voted for Kerry. I WANT him to be a good ole politician and seek as many political alternatives as possible. Not just run off to war and acted as stupid as he can militarly and politically. I want him to change positions and be just as his job title implies, a politician.
That is why Bush can promise no draft; he doesn't think. I HATE BS. But a politician full of crap is better than a STUPID politician. Hence, the best of two evils.
tylor
exactly! in my opinion a draft is inevitable. but, that's just my opinion. i could be wrong, in which case i will admit to being so. but until the end of the next four years i'm set in saying the chances of there being a draft, or something of that sort, is very very likely.
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I agree with jjthefourth.
I also agree with:
One lawmaker spoke in favor of the bill, saying it was time Congress gave some thought to future military manpower needs.
Not that I favor a draft. But have you ever thought of how, if, we want to continue the way we are, with our current, and most likely Bushes future, plans we might be forced to install a draft? That is one reason I voted for Kerry. I WANT him to be a good ole politician and seek as many political alternatives as possible. Not just run off to war and acted as stupid as he can militarly and politically. I want him to change positions and be just as his job title implies, a politician.
That is why Bush can promise no draft; he doesn't think. I HATE BS. But a politician full of crap is better than a STUPID politician. Hence, the best of two evils.
tylor
exactly! in my opinion a draft is inevitable. but, that's just my opinion. i could be wrong, in which case i will admit to being so. but until the end of the next four years i'm set in saying the chances of there being a draft, or something of that sort, is very very likely.
I don't think you people get it.
A draft CANNOT happen in modern times barring a MAJOR war. There is no possible way congress would approve a draft. NONE. ZERO.
Barring something like England getting invaded, the US will just scale back our overseas activities to accomdate the # of troops we have.
In other words, BUsh won't send anyone into NKorea until we are done with Iraq and can spare the troops.
So get this whole draft notion out of your head. It is a non-issue.
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Someone tell me where the Bible says it's okay to murder people.
Actaully there are places in the old testement where people are killed in God's name. Even genocide.
tylor
Hmmmm... I don't remember genocide? I remember there being a few wars that God played a part in. But I sure don't remember genocide. Refresh my memory?
Also, note that Limey said "Murder" not "kill"
God takes lives all the time in the Bible. Neither God nor God's people commit murder. Murder is a sin. Taking lives in rightousness would not be BECAUSE it is done by God (or in God's true name) and God is incapable of sin.
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...all the people that voted to keep bush in will understand when the economy continues to fail...
I really wish people would stop blaming the President for the state of the economy. The economy is no more than a collective state of mind. The reason it "fails" is because a great number of people in the nation get spooked by something they think they heard someone in Washington say and start getting cautious with their money. Then when people don't spend, business don't profit; and when businesses don't profit, they cut back; and when they cut back, people lose jobs; and when people lose jobs, they can't spend; and the whole bleeding thing goes back around. Lighten the фук up!
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...all the people that voted to keep bush in will understand when the economy continues to fail...
I really wish people would stop blaming the President for the state of the economy. The economy is no more than a collective state of mind. The reason it "fails" is because a great number of people in the nation get spooked by something they think they heard someone in Washington say and start getting cautious with their money. Then when people don't spend, business don't profit; and when businesses don't profit, they cut back; and when they cut back, people lose jobs; and when people lose jobs, they can't spend; and the whole bleeding thing goes back around. Lighten the фук up!
...
No. Sorry. But you're just flat out wrong. Economics is infinitly more than simple sociology. It's the distribution of limited resources amongst unlimited wants. It involves sociology, but you're description is like saying that statistics is just the probability of a coin comming up heads.
I'm not going to give you the 3 page dissertation on why you are wrong, because you have oversimplified a topic I've spent 6 years studying to the point where I'd have to spend 2 hours getting you up to speed.
But suffice it to say, a president CAN and DOES influence the economy. He influences it with his words. He influences it with the intiatives he supports in congress. He influences it with his appointed officials. He influences it with his policies on things like welfare, social security and school vouchers.
Now, I don't blame our last economy dipp on Bush. I blame it on the previous administration. But don't think for a SECOND Bush couldn't crash our economy in a hurry if he wanted to.
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I'm not going to give you the 3 page dissertation
Damn. I was so looking forward to it.
;)
-Kev
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I'm not going to give you the 3 page dissertation
Damn. I was so looking forward to it.
;)
-Kev
Massochist.
Read this. Everyone.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,482-1343295,00.html
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No. Sorry. But you're just flat out wrong. Economics is infinitly more than simple sociology. It's the distribution of limited resources amongst unlimited wants. It involves sociology, but you're description is like saying that statistics is just the probability of a coin comming up heads.
I'm not going to give you the 3 page dissertation on why you are wrong, because you have oversimplified a topic I've spent 6 years studying to the point where I'd have to spend 2 hours getting you up to speed.
Man, I just love playing devil's advocate sometimes. :twisted:
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No. Sorry. But you're just flat out wrong. Economics is infinitly more than simple sociology. It's the distribution of limited resources amongst unlimited wants. It involves sociology, but you're description is like saying that statistics is just the probability of a coin comming up heads.
I'm not going to give you the 3 page dissertation on why you are wrong, because you have oversimplified a topic I've spent 6 years studying to the point where I'd have to spend 2 hours getting you up to speed.
Man, I just love playing devil's advocate sometimes. :twisted:
*shakes fist*
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Thursday, November 4th, 2004
My first thoughts about the election...(from M.Moore)
Cpl. Roberto Abad, Sgt. Michael D. Acklin II, Spc. Genaro Acosta, Pfc. Steven Acosta, Capt. James F. Adamouski, Pvt. Algernon Adams, Sgt. Brandon E. Adams, Spc. Clarence Adams III, 1st Lt. Michael R. Adams, Pfc. Michael S. Adams, Lt. Thomas Mullen Adams, Spc. Jamaal R. Addison, Lance Cpl. Patrick R. Adle, Capt. Tristan N. Aitken, Spc. Segun Frederick Akintade, Lance Cpl. Nickalous N. Aldrich, Spc. Ronald D. Allen Jr., Sgt. Glenn R. Allison, Lance Cpl. Michael J. Allred, Capt. Eric L. Allton, Cpl. Nicanor Alvarez, Cpl. Daniel R. Amaya, Pfc. John D. Amos II, Lance Cpl. Brian E. Anderson, Airman 1st Class Carl L. Anderson Jr., Petty Officer 2nd Class Michael C. Anderson, Spc. Michael Andrade, Pfc, Spc. Yoe M. Aneiros, Lance Cpl. Levi T. Angell, Army Spc. Edward J. Anguiano, Chief Warrant Officer Andrew Todd Arnold, Lance Cpl. Alexander S. Arredondo, Spc. Richard Arriaga, Staff Sgt. Jimmy J. Arroyave, Spc. Robert R. Arsiaga, Sgt. Evan Asa Ashcraft, Pfc. Shawn M. Atkins, Maj. Jay Aubin, Capt. Matthew J. August, Lance Cpl. Aaron C. Austin, Spc. Tyanna S. Avery-Fedder, Lance Cpl. Andrew Julian Aviles, Pfc. Eric A. Ayon, Sgt. 1st Class Henry A. Bacon, Sgt. Andrew Joseph Baddick, Staff Sgt. Daniel A. Bader, Staff Sgt. Nathan J. Bailey, Spc. Ronald W. Baker, Spc. Ryan T. Baker, Sgt. Sherwood R. Baker.
Pfc. Chad E. Bales, 1st Lt. Kenneth Michael Ballard, Maj. Spc. Solomon C. Bangayan, Lt. Col. Dominic R. Baragona, Pfc. Mark A. Barbret, Pfc. Collier E. Barcus, Sgt. Michael C. Barkey, Spc. Jonathan P. Barnes, Command Sgt. Maj. Edward C. Barnhill, Lance Cpl. Aric J. Barr, Sgt. Michael Paul Barrera, Maj. Carlos Barro Ollero, Sgt. Douglas E. Bascom, Spc. Todd M. Bates, Sgt. 1st Class Michael Battles Sr., Gunnery Sgt. Ronald E. Baum, Spc. Alan N. Bean Jr., Spc. Bradley S. Beard, Spc. Beau R. Beaulieu, Capt. Ryan Beaupre, Spc. James L. Beckstrand, Sgt. Gregory A. Belanger, Cpl. Christopher Belchik, Sgt. Aubrey D. Bell, Pfc. Wilfred D. Bellard, Staff Sgt. Joseph P. Bellavia, Sgt. 1st Class William M. Bennett, Spc. Robert T. Benson, 1st Lt. David R. Bernstein, Spc. Joel L. Bertoldie, Staff Sgt. Stephen A. Bertolino Sr., Staff Sgt. Marvin Best, Cpl. Mark A. Bibby, Sgt. Benjamin W. Biskie, Sgt. Michael E. Bitz, Sgt. Jarrod W. Black, Chief Warrant Officer Michael T. Blaise, Capt. Ernesto M. Blanco, Command Sgt. Maj. James D. Blankenbecler, Spc. Joseph M. Blickenstaff, Spc. Nicholas H. Blodgett, Sgt. Trevor A. Blumberg, Lance Cpl. Jeremy L. Bohlman, Gunnery Sgt. Jeffrey E. Bohr Jr., Lance Cpl. Todd J. Bolding, Sgt. Dennis J. Boles, Sgt. 1st Class Craig A. Boling, Petty Officer 3rd Class Doyle W. Bollinger Jr, Sgt. 1st Class Kelly Bolor, Staff Sgt. Stevon A. Booker.
Chief Warrant Officer Clarence E. Boone, Capt. John J. Boria, Pfc. Rachel K. Bosveld, Spc. Mathew G. Boule, Staff Sgt. Elvis Bourdon, Pvt. 1st Class Samuel R. Bowen, Staff Sgt. Hesley Box Jr., Pvt. Noah L. Boye, Lance Cpl. Aaron Boyles, Spc. Edward W. Brabazon, Cpl. Travis J. Bradach-Nall, Staff Sgt. Kenneth R. Bradley, Staff Sgt. Stacey C. Brandon, Spc. Artimus D. Brassfield, Pfc. Joel K. Brattain, Pfc. Jeffrey F. Braun, Chief Warrant Officer William I. Brennan, Staff Sgt. Steven H. Bridges, Spc. Kyle A. Brinlee, Staff Sgt. Cory W. Brooks, Sgt. Thomas F. Broomhead, Sgt. Andrew W. Brown, Tech. Sgt. Bruce E. Brown, Lance Cpl. Dominic C. Brown, Cpl. Henry L. Brown, Pfc. John E. Brown, Spc. Larry K. Brown, Spc. Lunsford B. Brown II, 1st Lt. Tyler H. Brown, Spc. Philip D. Brown, Pfc. Timmy R. Brown Jr., 1st Lt. Tyler H. Brown, Cpl. Andrew D. Brownfield, Petty Officer 3rd Class Nathan B. Bruckenthal, Lance Cpl. Cedric E. Bruns, 2nd Lt. Todd J. Bryant, Sgt. Ernest G. Bucklew, Spc. Roy Russell Buckley, Pfc. Paul J. Bueche, Lt. Col. Charles H. Buehring, Lance Cpl. Brian Rory Buesing, Sgt. George Edward Buggs, Spc. Joshua I. Bunch, Staff Sgt. Christopher Bunda, Staff Sgt. Michael L. Burbank, Staff Sgt. Richard A. Burdick, Spc. Alan J. Burgess, Lance Cpl. Jeffrey C. Burgess, Pfc. Tamario D. Burkett, Sgt. Travis L. Burkhardt.
Pfc. David P. Burridge, Pfc. Jesse R. Buryj, Pfc. Charles E. Bush Jr., Pvt. Matthew D. Bush, Pfc. Damian S. Bushart, Sgt. Jacob L. Butler, Capt. Joshua T. Byers, Cpl. Juan C. Cabralbanuelos, Pfc. Cody S. Calavan, Sgt. Juan Calderon Jr, Sgt. Charles T. Caldwell, Spc. Nathaniel A. Caldwell, Staff Sgt. Joseph Camara, Spc. Michael C. Campbell, Sgt. Ryan M. Campbell, Spc. Marvin A. Camposiles, Spc. Isaac Campoy, Spc. Ervin Caradine Jr., Spc. Adolfo C. Carballo, Pfc. Michael M. Carey, Cpl. Richard P. Carl, Pfc. Ryan G. Carlock, Pfc. Benjamin R. Carman, Staff Sgt. Edward W. Carmen, Spc. Jocelyn L. Carrasquillo, Sgt. Frank T. Carvill, Capt. Christopher S. Cash, Spc. Ahmed A. Cason, Pfc. Jose Casanova, Lance Cpl. James A. Casper, Capt. Paul J. Cassidy, Staff Sgt. Roland L. Castro, Sgt. Sean K. Cataudella, Lance Cpl. Steven C. T. Cates, Pfc. Thomas D. Caughman, Staff Sgt. James W. Cawley, Spc. Jessica L. Cawvey, Petty Officer 3rd Class David A. Cedergren, Lance Cpl. Manuel A. Ceniceros, Cpl. Kemaphoom A. Chanawongse, Spc. James A. Chance III, Staff Sgt. William D. Chaney, Chief Warrant Officer Robert William Channell Jr., Spc. Jason K. Chappell, Pfc. Jonathan M. Cheatham, Sgt. Yohjyh L. Chen, Lance Cpl. Marcus M. Cherry, 2nd Lt. Therrel S. Childers, Spc. Andrew F. Chris.
Staff Sgt. Thomas W. Christensen, Spc. Brett T. Christian, Spc. Arron R. Clark, Staff Sgt. Michael J. Clark, Lance Cpl. Donald J. Cline Jr., Pfc. Christopher R. Cobb, Lance Cpl. Kyle W. Codner, 1st Sgt. Christopher D. Coffin, Pvt. Bradli N. Coleman, Cpl. Gary B. Coleman, 2nd Lt. Benjamin J. Colgan, Sgt. Russell L. Collier, Sgt. 1st Class Gary L. Collins, Lance Cpl. Jonathan W. Collins, Chief Warrant Officer Lawrence S. Colton, Spc. Zeferino E. Colunga, Sgt. Robert E. Colvill, Sgt. Kenneth Conde Jr., Sgt. Timothy M. Conneway, Spc. Steven D. Conover, Capt. Aaron J. Contreras, Lance Cpl. Pedro Contreras, Sgt. Jason Cook, Command Sgt. Major Eric F. Cooke, Sgt. Dennis A. Corral, Chief Warrant Officer Alexander S. Coulter, 2nd Lt. Leonard M. Cowherd, Spc. Gregory A. Cox, Pfc. Ryan R. Cox, Lance Corporal Timothy R. Creager, Sgt. Michael T. Crockett, Staff Sgt. Ricky L. Crockett, Sgt. Brud J. Cronkrite, Lance Cpl. Kyle D. Crowley, Pvt. Rey D. Cuervo, Pfc. Kevin A. Cuming, Spc. Daniel Francis J. Cunningham, Staff Sgt. Darren J. Cunningham, Spc. Carl F. Curran, Cpl. Michael Edward Curtin, Staff Sgt. Christopher E. Cutchall, Pfc. Brian K. Cutter, Pfc. Anthony D. D'Agostino, Spc. Edgar P. Daclan Jr., Capt. Nathan S. Dalley, Lance Cpl. Andrew S. Dang, Spc. Danny B. Daniels II, Pvt. 1st Class Torey J. Dantzler, Pfc. Norman Darling, Capt. Eric B. Das.
Spc. Shawn M. Davies, Pvt. Brandon L. Davis, Staff Sgt. Craig Davis, Staff Sgt. Donald N. Davis, Spc. Raphael S. Davis, Staff Sgt. Wilbert Davis, Staff Sgt. Jeffrey F. Dayton, Pvt. Jason L. Deibler, Spc. Lauro G. DeLeon Jr., Sgt. Felix M. Delgreco, Sgt. Jacob H. Demand, Staff Sgt. Mike A. Dennie, Spc. Darryl T. Dent, Pfc. Ervin Dervishi, Spc. Daniel A. Desens, Pfc. Michael R. Deuel, Pvt. Michael J. Deutsch, Petty Officer 3rd Class Christopher M. Dickerson, Cpl. Nicholas J. Dieruf, Spc. Jeremiah J. DiGiovanni, Spc. Jeremy M. Dimaranan, Spc. Michael A. Diraimondo, Spc. Anthony J. Dixon, Spc. Ryan E. Doltz, Sgt. Michael E. Dooley, Chief Warrant Officer Patrick D. Dorff, Petty Officer 2nd Class Trace W. Dossett, Lance Cpl. Scott E. Dougherty, 1st Sgt. Robert J. Dowdy, Pfc. Stephen P. Downing II, Spc. Chad H. Drake, Pvt. Jeremy L. Drexler, Cpl. Jason L. Dunham, Staff Sgt. Joe L. Dunigan Jr., Spc. Robert L. DuSang, Spc. William D. Dusenbery, 2nd Lt. Seth J. Dvorin, Petty Officer 2nd Class Jason B. Dwelley, Pfc. Sheldon R. Hawk Eagle, Staff Sgt. Richard S. Eaton Jr., Cpl. Christopher S. Ebert, Sgt. William C. Eckhart, Spc. Marshall L. Edgerton, Pfc. Shawn C. Edwards, Spc. Andrew C. Ehrlich, Sgt. Aaron C. Elandt, Spc. William R. Emanuel IV, Lance Cpl. Mark E. Engel, Spc. Peter G. Enos, Senior Airman Pedro I. Espaillat Jr.
Pfc. Analaura Esparza Gutierrez, Sgt. Adam W. Estep, Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, Pfc. David Evans, Cpl. Mark A. Evnin, Pfc. Jeremy Ricardo Ewing, Sgt. Justin L. Eyerly, Pvt. Jonathan I. Falaniko, Sgt. James D. Faulkner, Pfc. Raymond J. Faulstich Jr., Capt. Brian R. Faunce, Capt. Arthur L. Felder, 2nd Lt. Paul M. Felsberg, Spc. Rian C. Ferguson, Master Sgt. Richard L. Ferguson, Master Sgt. George A. Fernandez, Staff Sgt. Clint D. Ferrin, Spc. Jon P. Fettig, Cpl. Tyler R. Fey, Sgt. Jeremy J. Fischer, Sgt. Paul F. Fisher, Lance Cpl. Dustin R. Fitzgerald, Pfc. Jacob S. Fletcher, Spc. Thomas A. Foley III, Sgt. Timothy Folmar, Gunnery Sgt. Elia P. Fontecchio, Spc. Jason C. Ford, Capt. Travis A. Ford, Chief Warrant Officer Wesley C. Fortenberry, Sgt. 1st Class Bradley C. Fox, Spc. Craig S. Frank, Lance Cpl. Phillip E. Frank, Staff Sgt. Bobby C. Franklin, Pvt. Robert L. Frantz, Pvt. Benjamin L. Freeman, Sgt. David T. Friedrich, Spc. Luke P. Frist, Spc. Adam D. Froehlich, Pvt. Kurt R. Frosheiser, Pfc. Nichole M. Frye, Sgt. 1st Class Dan H. Gabrielson, Lance Cpl. Jonathan E. Gadsden, Capt. Richard J. Gannon II, Spc. Tomas Garces, Lance Cpl. Derek L. Gardner, Cpl. Jose A. Garibay, Spc. Joseph M. Garmback Jr., Sgt. Landis W. Garrison, Sgt. Justin W. Garvey, Spc. Israel Garza.
1st Sgt. Joe J. Garza, Pfc. Juan Guadalupe Garza Jr, Spc. Christopher D. Gelineau, Lance Cpl. Cory Ryan Guerin, Cpl. Christopher A. Gibson, Pvt. Jonathan L. Gifford, Pvt. Kyle C. Gilbert, Command Sgt. Maj. Cornell W. Gilmore, Petty Officer 3rd Class Ronald A. Ginther, Pfc. Jesse A. Givens, Spc. Michael T. Gleason, Cpl. Todd J. Godwin, 2nd Lt. James Michael Goins, Spc. Christopher A. Golby, Spc. David J. Goldberg, Lance Cpl. Shane L. Goldman, Cpl. Armando Ariel Gonzalez, Lance Cpl. Benjamin R. Gonzalez, Cpl. Jesus A. Gonzalez, Cpl. Jorge Gonzalez, Lance Cpl. Victor A. Gonzalez, Cpl. Bernard G. Gooden, Pfc. Gregory R. Goodrich, Sgt. 1st Class Richard S. Gottfried, Spc. Richard A. Goward, 2nd Lt. Jeffrey C. Graham, Sgt. Jamie A. Gray, Petty Officer 2nd Class Michael J. Gray, Sgt. Tommy L. Gray, Lance Cpl. Torrey L. Gray, Cpl. Jeffrey G. Green, Lt. Col. David S. Greene, Pfc. Devin J. Grella, Spc. Kyle A. Griffin, Staff Sgt. Patrick Lee Griffin Jr., Cpl. Sean R. Grilley, Pvt. Joseph R. Guerrera, Chief Warrant Officer Hans N. Gukeisen, Pfc. Christian D. Gurtner, Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez, Pfc. Richard W. Hafer, Staff Sgt. Guy S. Hagy Jr., Spc. Charles G. Haight, Lance Cpl. Michael J. Halal, Pfc. Deryk L. Hallal, Pvt. Jesse M. Halling, Pfc. Andrew Halverson, Chief Warrant Officer Erik A. Halvorsen, Capt. Kimberly N. Hampton, Sgt. Michael S. Hancock.
Pfc. Fernando B. Hannon, Sgt. Warren S. Hansen, Sgt. James W. Harlan, Sgt. Atanacio Haro Marin, Staff Sgt. William M. Harrell, Sgt. Foster L. Harrington, Pfc. Adam J. Harris, Sgt. Kenneth W. Harris Jr., Pfc. Torry D. Harris, Pfc. Leroy Harris-Kelly, Pfc. John D. Hart, Sgt. Nathaniel Hart, Sgt. 1st Class David A. Hartman, Sgt. Jonathan N. Hartman, Staff Sgt. Stephen C. Hattamer, Staff Sgt. Omer T. Hawkins II, Sgt. Timothy L. Hayslett, Chief Warrant Officer Brian D. Hazelgrove, Sgt. David M. Heath, Spc. Justin W. Hebert, Pfc. Damian L. Heidelberg, Pfc. Raheen Tyson Heighter, Spc. Jeremy M. Heines, Staff Sgt. Brian R. Hellerman, Staff Sgt. Terry W. Hemingway, Cpl. Matthew C. Henderson, 1st Lt. Robert L. Henderson II, Staff Sgt. Kenneth W. Hendrickson, Sgt. Jack T. Hennessy, Spc. Joshua J. Henry, Pfc. Clayton W. Henson, Spc. Armando Hernandez, Spc. Joseph F. Herndon II, Pfc. Edward J. Herrgott, Spc. Jacob B. Herring, Sgt. 1st Class Gregory B. Hicks, Spc. Christopher K. Hill, Spc. Stephen D. Hiller, Sgt. Keicia M. Hines, Pfc. Melissa J. Hobart, Sgt. Nicholas M. Hodson, Sgt. 1st Class James T. Hoffman, Spc. Christopher J. Holland, Staff Sgt. Aaron N. Holleyman, Staff Sgt. Lincoln D. Hollinsaid, Spc. James J. Holmes, Spc. Jeremiah J. Holmes, Cpl. Terry Holmes, Airman 1st Class Antoine J. Holt, Pfc. Sean Horn, Master Sgt. Kelly L. Hornbeck.
Staff Sgt. Jeremy R. Horton, Capt. Andrew R. Houghton, Lance Cpl Gregory C. Howman, Pfc. Bert E. Hoyer, Spc. Corey A. Hubbell, Pfc. Christopher E. Hudson, 1st Lt. Doyle M. Hufstedler, Staff Sgt. Jamie L. Huggins, Spc. Eric R. Hull, Cpl Barton R. Humlhanz, Lance Cpl. Justin T. Hunt, Spc. Simeon Hunte, 1st Lt. Joshua C. Hurley, Lance Cpl. James B. Huston Jr., Lance Cpl. Seth Huston, Pvt. Nolen R. Hutchings, Pfc. Ray J. Hutchinson, Pfc. Gregory P. Huxley Jr., Spc. Benjamin W. Isenberg, Spc. Craig S. Ivory, Pfc. Leslie D. Jackson, Spc. Morgen N. Jacobs, Chief Warrant Officer Scott Jamar, Cpl. Evan T. James, 2nd Lt. Luke S. James, Spc. William A. Jeffries, Petty Officer 2nd Class Robert B. Jenkins, Sgt. Troy David Jenkins, Spc. Darius T. Jennings, Pfc. Ryan M. Jerabek, Sgt. Linda C. Jimenez, 1st Lt. Oscar Jimenez, Capt. Christopher B. Johnson, Spc. David W. Johnson, Pfc. Howard Johnson II, Spc. John P. Johnson, Pfc. Markus J. Johnson, Spc. Maurice J. Johnson, Hospital Corpsman 3rd Class Michael Vann Johnson Jr., Spc. Nathaniel H. Johnson, Staff Sgt. Paul J. Johnson, Chief Warrant Officer, Pfc. Rayshawn S. Johnson, Pvt. Devon D. Jones, Capt. Gussie M. Jones, Staff Sgt. Raymond E. Jones Jr., Spc. Rodney A. Jones, Lt. Kylan A. Jones- Huffman, Sgt. Curt E. Jordan Jr., Sgt. Jason D. Jordan.
Staff Sgt. Phillip A. Jordan, Cpl. Forest J. Jostes, Spc. Spencer T. Karol, Spc. Michael G. Karr Jr., Spc. Mark J. Kasecky, 1st Lt. Jeffrey J. Kaylor, Spc. Chad L. Keith, Lance Cpl. Quinn A. Keith, Lance Cpl. Bryan P. Kelly, Cpl. Brian Kennedy, Chief Warrant Officer Kyran E. Kennedy, Staff Sgt. Morgan D. Kennon, 1st Lt. Christopher J. Kenny, Spc. Jonathan R. Kephart, Cpl. Dallas L. Kerns, Chief Warrant Officer Erik C. Kesterson, Capt. Humayun S. M. Khan, Spc. James M. Kiehl, Pt. Jeungjin Na Kim, Staff Sgt. Kevin C. Kimmerly. Spc. Levi B. Kinchen, Staff Sgt. Lester O. Kinney II, Pfc. David M. Kirchhoff, Staff Sgt. Charles A. Kiser, Lance Cpl. Nicholas Brian Kleiboeker, Spc. John K. Klinesmith Jr., Sgt. Floyd G. Knighten Jr., Petty Officer 3rd Class Eric L. Knott, Spc. Joshua L. Knowles, Staff Sgt. Lance J. Koenig, Cpl. Kevin T. Kolm, Pfc. Martin W. Kondor, Chief Warrant Patrick W. Kordsmeier, Capt. Edward J. Korn, Sgt. Bradley S. Korthaus, Cpl. Jakub Henryk Kowalik, Sgt. Elmer C. Krause, Pvt. Dustin L. Kreider, Pfc. Bradley G. Kritzer, Capt. John F. Kurth, Sgt. 1st Class William W. Labadie Jr., Sgt. Joshua S. Ladd, Sgt. Michael V. Lalush, Lance Cpl. Alan Dinh Lam, Spc. Charles R. Lamb, Spc. James I. Lambert III, Pfc. James P. Lambert, Sgt. Jonathan W. Lambert, Capt. Andrew David Lamont, Staff Sgt. Sean G. Landrus, Gunnery Sgt. Shawn A. Lane.
Pfc. Moises A. Langhorst, Spc. Tracy L. Laramore, Spc. Scott Q. Larson Jr., Chief Warrant Officer Matthew C. Laskowski, Staff Sgt. William T. Latham, Pfc. Karina S. Lau, Cpl. Jeffrey D. Lawrence, Staff Sgt. Mark A. Lawton, Lance Cpl. Travis J. Layfield, Staff Sgt. Rene Ledesma, 2nd Lt. Ryan Leduc, Cpl. Bum R. Lee, Pfc. Ken W. Leisten, Staff Sgt. Jerome Lemon, Spc. Cedric L. Lennon, Pfc. Farad K. Letufuga, Spc. Justin W. Linden, Spc. Roger G. Ling, Spc. Joseph L. Lister, Staff Sgt. Nino D. Livaudais, Sgt. Dale T. Lloyd, Sgt. Daniel J. Londono, Spc. Ryan P. Long, Spc. Zachariah W. Long, Pfc. Duane E. Longstreth, Sgt. Edgar E. Lopez, Lance Cpl. Juan Lopez, Sgt. Richard M. Lord, Staff Sgt. David L. Loyd, Capt. Robert L. Lucero, Pfc. Jason C. Ludiam, Lance Cpl. Jacob R. Lugo, Pfc. Jason N. Lynch, Pfc. Christopher D. Mabry, Lance Cpl. Gregory E. MacDonald, Lance Cpl. Cesar F. Machado-Olmos, Pfc. Vorn J. Mack, Lance Cpl. Joseph B. Maglione, Spc. William J. Maher III, Staff Sgt. Toby W. Mallet, Chief Warrant Officer Ian D. Manuel, Pfc. Pablo Manzano, Pfc. Lyndon A. Marcus Jr., Staff Sgt. Paul C. Mardis Jr., Cpl. Douglas Jose Marencoreyes, Master Sgt. Jude C. Mariano, Spc. James E. Marshall, Sgt. 1st Class John W. Marshall, Pfc. Ryan A. Martin, Staff Sgt. Stephen G. Martin.
Sgt. Francisco Martinez, Pfc. Francisco A. Martinez Flores, Pfc. Jesse J. Martinez, Spc. Michael A. Martinez, Pfc. Oscar A. Martinez, Spc. Jacob D. Martir, Sgt. Arthur S. Mastrapa, Chief Warrant Officer Johnny Villareal Mata, Lance Cpl. Ramon Mateo, Spc. Clint Richard Matthews, Lance Cpl. Ramon Mateo, Cpl. Matthew E. Matula, Staff Sgt. Donald C. May Jr, Pfc. Joseph P. Mayek, Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr., Lance Cpl. Joseph C. MacCarthy, Pfc. Ryan M. McCauley, Cpl. Brad P. McCormick, 1st Lt. Erik. S. McCrae, Spc. Donald R. McCune, Spc. Dustin K. McGaugh, Pfc. Holly J. McGeogh, Sgt. Brian D. McGinnis, Spc. Michael A. McGlothin. Petty Officer 2nd Class Scott R. McHugh, Hospitalman Joshua McIntosh, Spc. David M. McKeever, Spc. Eric S. McKinley, Pvt. Robert L. McKinley, Staff Sgt. Don S. McMahan, Sgt. Heath A. McMillin, 1st Lt. Brian M. McPhillips, Cpl. Jesus Martin Antonio Medellin, Spc. Irving Medina, Spc. Kenneth A. Melton, Cpl. Jaygee Meluat, Petty Officer 3rd Class Fernando A. Mendezaceves, Gunnery Sgt. Joseph Menusa, Staff Sgt. Eddie E. Menyweather, Spc. Gil Mercado, Spc. Michael M. Merila, Spc. Christopher A. Merville, Sgt. Daniel K. Methvin, Pfc. Jason M. Meyer, Sgt. Eliu A. Miersandoval, Spc. Michael G. Mihalakis, Pfc. Matthew G. Milczark, Cpl. Jason David Mileo, Pfc. Anthony S. Miller, Pfc. Bruce Miller Jr., Staff Sgt. Frederick L. Miller Jr.
Sgt. 1st Class Marvin L. Miller, Sgt. Joseph Minucci II, Sgt. First Class Troy L. Miranda, Spc. George A. Mitchell, Sgt. Keman L. Mitchell, Sgt. Michael W. Mitchell, Spc. Sean R. Mitchell, Pfc. Jesse D. Mizener, Staff Sgt. Jorge A. Molinabautista, Pfc. Anthony W. Monroe, 1st Lt. Adam G. Mooney, Lance Cpl. Jason William Moore, Pfc. Stuart W. Moore, Sgt. Travis A. Moothart, Spc. Jose L. Mora, Sgt. Melvin Y. Mora, Pfc. Michael A. Mora, Master Sgt. Kevin N. Morehead, Capt. Brent L. Morel, Petty Officer 3rd Class David J. Moreno, Sgt. Gerardo Moreno, Spc. Jaime Moreno, Pfc. Luis A. Moreno, Spc. Dennis B. Morgan, Staff Sgt. Richard L. Morgan Jr., Pfc. Geoffery S. Morris, Pfc. Ricky A. Morris Jr., Lance Cpl. Nicholas B. Morrison, Sgt. Shawna M. Morrison, Sgt. Keelan L. Moss, Spc. Clifford L. Moxley Jr., Sgt. Cory R. Mracek, Sgt. Rodney A. Murray, Sgt. Krisna Nachampassak, Spc. Paul T. Nakamura, Spc. Nathan W. Nakis, Pvt. Kenneth A. Nalley, Chief Warrant Officer Christopher G. Nason, Maj. Kevin G. Nave, Spc. Rafael L. Navea, Spc. Charles L. Neeley, Staff Sgt. Paul M. Neff II, Pfc. Gavin L. Neighbor, Spc. Joshua M. Neusche, Cpl. Dominique J. Nicolas, Lance Cpl. Joseph L. Nice, Spc. Isaac Michael Nieves, Lance Cpl. Patrick R. Nixon, Spc. Allen Nolan, Spc. Marcos O. Nolasco.
Sgt. William J. Normandy, Spc. Joseph C. Norquist, 1st Lt. Leif E. Nott, Staff Sgt. Todd E. Nunes, Spc. David T. Nutt, Cpl. Mick R. Nygardbekowsky, Spc. Donald S. Oak Jr., Pfc. Branden F. Oberleitner, Lance Cpl. Patrick T. O'Day, Spc. Charles E. Odums II, Spc. Ramon C. Ojeda, Cpl. Terry Holmes Ordonez, Cpl. Brian Oliveira, Spc. Justin B. Onwordi, Spc. Richard P. Orengo, Lt. Col. Kim S. Orlando, Lance Cpl. Eric J. Orlowski, 1st Lt. Osbaldo Orozco, Pfc. Cody J. Orr, Staff Sgt. Billy J. Orton, Sgt. Pamela G. Osbourne, Lance Cpl. Deshon E. Otey, Pfc. Kevin C. Ott, Sgt. Michael G. Owen, Lance Cpl. David Edward Owens Jr, Sgt. Fernando Padilla- Ramirez, Pvt. Shawn D. Pahnke, Spc. Gabriel T. Palacios, Capt. Eric T. Paliwoda, 1st Lt. Joshua M. Palmer, Staff Sgt. Dale A. Panchot, Pfc. Daniel R. Parker, Pfc. James D. Parker, Pfc. Kristen Parker, Cpl. Tommy L. Parker Jr., Sgt. Harvey E. Parkerson III, Sgt. David B. Parson, Staff Sgt. Esau G. Patterson Jr., Master Sgt. William L. Payne, Sgt. Michael F. Pedersen, Staff Sgt. Abraham D. Penamedina, Spc. Brian H. Penisten, Sgt. Ross A. Pennanen, Staff Sgt. Gregory V. Pennington, Pfc. Geoffrey Perez, Staff Sgt. Hector R. Perez, Sgt. Joel Perez, Spc. Jose A. Perez III, Pfc. Luis A. Perez, Lance Cpl. Nicholas Perez.
Spc. Wilfredo Perez Jr., Petty Officer 1st Class Michael J. Pernaselli, Staff Sgt. David S. Perry, Pfc. Charles C. Persing, Staff Sgt. Dustin W. Peters, Spc. Alyssa R. Peterson, Staff Sgt. Brett J. Petriken, Staff Sgt. James L. Pettaway Jr., Staff Sgt. Erickson H. Petty, Pfc. Jerrick M. Petty, Lt. Col. Mark P. Phelan, Pfc. Chance R. Phelps, Sgt. 1st Class Gladimir Philippe, Sgt. Ivory L. Phipps, Capt. Pierre E. Piche, Pfc. Lori Piestewa, Capt. Dennis L. Pintor, Spc. James H. Pirtle, Pfc. Jason T. Poindexter, 2nd Lt. Frederick E. Pokorney Jr., Staff Sgt. Andrew R. Pokorny, Spc. Justin W. Pollard, Spc. Larry E. Polley Jr., Sgt. Darrin K. Potter, Pfc. David L. Potter, Sgt. Christopher S. Potts, Spc. James E. Powell, Lance Cpl. Caleb J. Powers, Cpl. Dean P. Pratt, Pfc. James E. Prevete, Pvt. Kelley S. Prewitt, Sgt. Tyler D. Prewitt, Pfc. James W. Price, 1st Lt. Timothy E. Price, Lance Cpl. Mathew D. Puckett, Sgt. Jaror C. Puello- Coronado, Staff Sgt. Michael B. Quinn, Staff Sgt. Richard P. Ramey, Sgt. Christopher Ramirez, Spc. Eric U. Ramirez, Pfc. William C. Ramirez, Pfc. Christopher Ramos, Spc. Tamarra J. Ramos, Pfc. Brandon Ramsey, Pvt. Carson J. Ramsey, Sgt. Edmond L. Randle, Pfc. Cleston C. Raney, Capt. Gregory A. Ratzlaff, Spc. Rel A. Ravago IV, Spc. Omead H. Razani.
Spc. Brandon M. Read, Pfc. Christopher J. Reed, Pfc. Ryan E. Reed, Sgt. Tatjana Reed, Staff Sgt. Aaron T. Reese, Spc. Jeremy F. Regnier, Sgt. 1st Class Randall S. Rehn, Sgt. Brendon C. Reiss, Staff Sgt. George S. Rentschler, Sgt. Sean C. Reynolds, Lance Cpl. Rafael Reynosa- Suarez, Sgt. Yadir G. Reynoso, Cpl. Demetrius L. Rice, Sgt. Ariel Rico, Spc. Jeremy L. Ridlen, Pfc. Diego Fernando Rincon, Cpl. Steven A. Rintamaki, Sgt. Duane R. Rios, Capt. Russell B. Rippetoe, Pfc. Henry C. Risner, Sgt. 1st Class Jose A. Rivera, Cpl. John T. Rivero, Spc. Frank K. Rivers Jr., Sgt. Thomas D. Robbins, Sgt. Todd J. Robbins, Lance Cpl. Anthony P. Roberts, Lance Cpl. Bob W. Roberts, Spc. Robert D. Roberts, Staff Sgt. Joseph E. Robsky, Sgt. Moses D. Rocha, Pfc. Marlin T. Rockhold, Pfc. Jose Francis Gonzalez Rodriguez, Cpl. Robert M. Rodriguez, Spc. Philip G. Rogers, Sgt. 1st Class Robert E. Rooney, Cpl. Randal Kent Rosacker, Staff Sgt. Victor A. Rosales, Pfc. Richard H. Rosas, Sgt. Scott C. Rose, Sgt. Thomas C. Rosenbaum, Sgt. Randy S. Rosenberg, Spc. Marco D. Ross, Sgt. Lawrence A. Roukey, Capt. Alan Rowe, Spc. Brandon J. Rowe, Sgt. Roger D. Rowe, 2nd Lt. Jonathan D. Rozier, Spc. Isela Rubalcava, Pfc. Aaron J. Rusin, Sgt. John W. Russell.
1st Lt. Timothy Louis Ryan, Chief Warrant Officer Scott A. Saboe, Spc. Rasheed Sahib, Cpl. Rudy Salas, Cpl. William I. Salazar, 1st Lt. Edward M. Saltz, Capt. Benjamin W. Sammis, Spc. Sonny G. Sampler, Spc. Gregory P. Sanders, Pfc. Leroy Sandoval Jr., Spc. Matthew J. Sandri, Staff Sgt. Barry Sanford, 1st Lt. Neil Anthony Santoriello, Spc. Jonathan J. Santos, Pfc. Brandon R. Sapp, Staff Sgt. Cameron B. Sarno, Staff Sgt. Scott D. Sather, Lance Cpl. Jeremiah E. Savage, Capt. Robert C. Scheetz Jr., Spc. Justin B. Schmidt, Spc. Jeremiah W. Schmunk, Pfc. Sean M. Schneider, Cpl. Dustin H. Schrage, Maj. Mathew E. Schram, Lance Cpl. Brian K. Schramm, Spc. Christian C. Schulz, Master Sgt. David A. Scott, Pfc. Kerry D. Scott, Spc. Stephen M. Scott, Spc. Marc S. Seiden, Capt. Christopher Scott Seifert, Pfc. Dustin M. Sekula, Lance Cpl. Matthew K. Serio, Sgt. Juan M. Serrano, Staff Sgt. Wentz Jerome Henry Shanaberger III, Spc. Jeffrey R. Shaver, Maj. Kevin M. Shea, Spc. Casey Sheehan, Sgt. Kevin F. Sheehan, Sgt. Daniel Michael Shepherd, Sgt. Alan D. Sherman, Lt. Col. Anthony L. Sherman, Pfc. Harry N. Shondee Jr., Lance Cpl. Brad S. Shuder, Capt. James A. Shull, Pfc. Kenneth L. Sickels, Lance Cpl. Dustin L. Sides, Cpl. Erik H. Silva, Pvt. Sean A. Silva, Sgt. Leonard D. Simmons.
Pfc. Charles M. Sims, Lance Cpl. John T. Sims Jr., Spc. Uday Singh, Spc. Aaron J. Sissel, Pfc. Christopher A. Sisson, Pfc. Nicholas M. Skinner, Petty Officer 3rd Class David Sisung, 1st Lt. Brian D. Slavenas, Pvt. Brandon Ulysses Sloan, Lance Cpl. Richard P. Slocum, Lance Cpl. Thomas J. Slocum, Pfc. Corey L. Small, Sgt. Keith L. Smette, Capt. Benedict J. Smith, Sgt. Benjamin K. Smith, Pfc. Brandon C. Smith, 2nd Lt. Brian D. Smith, Chief Warrant Officer Bruce A. Smith, Cpl. Darrell L. Smith, 1st Sgt. Edward Smith, Chief Warrant Officer Eric A. Smith, Pfc. Jeremiah D. Smith, Lance Cpl. Matthew R. Smith, Lance Cpl. Michael J. Smith Jr., Spc. Orenthial J. Smith, Sgt. 1st Class Paul R. Smith, Capt. Christopher F. Soelzer, Sgt. Roderic A. Solomon, Cpl. Adrian V. Soltau, Maj. Charles R. Soltes Jr., Sgt. Skipper Soram, Pfc. Armando Soriano, Cpl. Tomas Sotelo Jr., Pfc. Kenneth C. Souslin, Spc. Philip I. Spakosky, Pfc. Jason L. Sparks, Cpl. Michael R. Speer, Staff Sgt. Trevor Spink, Maj. Christopher J. Splinter, Sgt. Marvin R. Sprayberry III, Pvt. Bryan N. Spry, Sgt. Maj. Michael B. Stack, Pfc. Nathan E. Stahl, 1st Lt. Andrew K. Stern, Staff Sgt. Robert A. Stever, Maj. Gregory Stone, 2nd Lt. Matthew R. Stovall, Pfc. William R. Strange, Sgt. Kirk Allen Straseskie, Pfc. Brandon C. Sturdy.
Spc. William R. Sturges Jr., Spc. Paul J. Sturino, Lance Cpl. Jesus A. Suarez Del Solar, Spc. Joseph D. Suell, Spc. John R. Sullivan, Spc. Narson B. Sullivan, Lance Cpl. Vincent M. Sullivan, Staff Sgt. Michael J. Sutter, Pfc. Ernest Harold Sutphin, Chief Warrant Officer Sharon T. Swartworth, Spc. Thomas J. Sweet II, Staff Sgt. Christopher W. Swisher, Maj. Paul R. Syverson III, Sgt. Patrick S. Tainsh, Sgt. DeForest L. Talbert, Sgt. 1st Class Linda Ann Tarango-Griess, Spc. Christopher M. Taylor, Maj. Mark D. Taylor, Capt. John R. Teal, Staff Sgt. Riayan A. Tejeda, Lance Cpl. Jason Andrew Tetrault, Spc. Joseph C. Thibodeaux, Master Sgt. Thomas R. Thigpen Sr., Cpl. Jesse L. Thiry, Sgt. Carl Thomas, Staff Sgt. Kendall Thomas, Spc. Kyle G. Thomas, Sgt. Anthony O. Thompson, Spc. Jarrett B. Thompson, Sgt. Humberto F. Timoteo, Capt. John E. Tipton, Pfc. Joshua K. Titcomb, Spc. Brandon T. Titus, Spc. Brandon S. Tobler, Sgt. Lee D. TodacheeneCpl. John H. Todd III, Sgt. Nicholas A. Tomko, Master Sgt. Timothy Toney, Pfc. George D. Torres, Lance Cpl. Michael S. Torres, 2nd Lt. Richard Torres, Spc. Ramon Reyes Torres, Lance Cpl. Elias Torrez III, Sgt. Michael L. Tosto, Spc. Richard K. Trevithick, Pfc. Andrew L. Tuazon, Staff Sgt. Roger C. Turner Jr., Pvt. Scott M. Tyrrell, 2nd Lt. Andre D. Tyson, Spc. Eugene A. Uhl III, Lance Cpl. Drew M. Uhles.
Rick A. Ulbright, Pfc. Daniel P. Unger, Spc. Robert Oliver Unruh, 1st Sgt. Ernest E. Utt, Sgt. Michael A. Uvanni, Staff Sgt. Gary A. Vaillant, Lance Cpl. Ruben Valdez Jr., Sgt. Melissa Valles, Spc. Allen J. Vandayburg, Spc. Josiah H. Vandertulip, Chief Warrant Officer Brian K. Van Dusen, Lance Cpl. John J. Vangyzen IV, Lance Cpl. Gary F. Van Leuven, Staff Sgt. Mark D. Vasquez, Spc. Frances M. Vega, 1st Lt. Michael W. Vega, Staff Sgt. Paul A. Velazquez, Cpl. David M. Vicente, Sgt. 1st Class Joselito O. Villanueva, Cpl. Scott M. Vincent, Staff Sgt. Kimberly A. Voelz, Staff Sgt. Michael S. Voss, Spc. Thai Vue, Lance Cpl. Michael B. Wafford, Sgt. Christopher A. Wagener, Sgt. Gregory L. Wahl, Staff Sgt. Allan K. Walker, Sgt. Jeffery C. Walker, Sgt. Donald Ralph Walters, Pvt. Jason M. Ward, Pfc. Nachez Washalanta, Lance Cpl. Christopher B. Wasser, Pvt. David L. Waters, Staff Sgt. Kendall Damon Waters-Bey, Maj. William R. Watkins III, Petty Officer 2nd Class Christopher E. Watts, Chief Warrant Officer Aaron A. Weaver, Spc. Michael S. Weger, Staff Sgt. David J. Weisenburg, Spc. Douglas J. Weismantle, Pfc. Michael Russell Creighton Weldon, Lance Cpl. Larry L. Wells, Chief Warrant Officer Stephen M. Wells, Spc. Jeffrey M. Wershow, Spc. Christopher J. Rivera Wesley, Sgt. James G. West, 1st Lt. Alexander E. Wetherbee, Spc. Donald L. Wheeler, Sgt. Mason Douglas Whetstone, Pfc. Marquis A. Whitaker.
Staff Sgt. Aaron Dean White, Lt. Nathan D. White, Sgt. Steven W. White, Lance Cpl. William W. White, Pfc. Joey D. Whitener ,Spc. Chase R. Whitman, Spc. Michael J. Wiesemann, Cpl. Joshua S. Wilfong ,Sgt. Eugene Williams, Lance Cpl. Michael J. Williams, Spc. Michael L. Williams, Sgt. Taft V. Williams ,1st Lt. Charles L. Wilkins III, Sgt. 1st Class Christopher R. Willoughby, Spc. Dana N. Wilson, Command Sgt. Maj. Jerry L. Wilson, Staff Sgt. Joe N. Wilson, Lance Cpl. Lamont N. Wilson, Lance Cpl. Nicholas Wilt, 1st Lt. Ronald Winchester, Spc. Trevor A. Wine, Lance Cpl. William J. Wiscowiche, Spc. Robert A. Wise, Spc. Michelle M. Witmer, Pfc. Owen D. Witt, Spc. James R. Wolf, 2nd Lt. Jeremy L. Wolfe, Sgt. Elijah Tai Wah Wong, Sgt. Brian M. Wood, Capt. George A. Wood, Spc. Michael R. Woodliff, Spc. James C. Wright, Pfc. Jason G. Wright, 2nd Lt. John T. Wroblewski, Lance Cpl. Daniel R. Wyatt, Pfc. Stephen E. Wyatt, Sgt. Michael E. Yashinski, Sgt. Henry Ybarra III, Pfc. Rodricka A. Youmans, Sgt. Ryan C. Young, Lance Cpl. Andrew J. Zabierek, Spc. Nicholas J. Zangara, Spc. Mark Anthony Zapata, Pfc. Nicholaus E. Zimmer, Cpl. Ian T. Zook, Lance Cpl. Robert P. Zurheide Jr.
May they rest in peace.
And may they forgive us someday.
-- Michael Moore
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Plus X amount of innocent Iraqis.
:-/
Are we as retarded as we seem?
I'm moving to France.
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I dont give a rats ass about any of this crapppp.
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Plus X amount of innocent Iraqis..
100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians...
what?
HOW MANY?
100,000
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Cite your source. Different sites have different counts, but none of them are anywhere NEAR 100,000
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/- 14000-16000
http://www.mykeru.com/bodycount.html - >8000
http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE140052004 - ~10000
Those only count civilians. Not soldiers.
And even including soldiers, it's NOWHERE NEAR 100,000.
Article disproving 100,000 death theory: here (http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/)
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Next time I will look more into the numbers.
I did read this article, http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=6565%20 , and I got my information from "liberal" sources.
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Someone tell me where the Bible says it's okay to murder people.
Actaully there are places in the old testement where people are killed in God's name. Even genocide.
tylor
Hmmmm... I don't remember genocide? I remember there being a few wars that God played a part in. But I sure don't remember genocide. Refresh my memory?
This is in no way meant to be anti-semetic propoganda. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in any of this stuff at all. From my perspective I might as well be referring to a pagan religion like the greek or roman mythologies.
Try looking up Deuteronomy 2:33 thru 3:7.
Someone tell me where the Bible says it's okay to murder people.
Actaully there are places in the old testement where people are killed in God's name. Even genocide.
tylor
Also, note that Limey said "Murder" not "kill"
God takes lives all the time in the Bible. Neither God nor God's people commit murder. Murder is a sin. Taking lives in rightousness would not be BECAUSE it is done by God (or in God's true name) and God is incapable of sin.
That assumes a singular morality.
tylor
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haha, somebody sent this to me, I thought it was amusing...
http://www.nielsbuus.dk/rod/2004election_by_iq.png
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haha, somebody sent this to me, I thought it was amusing...
http://www.nielsbuus.dk/rod/2004election_by_iq.png
i lOve tHat!
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Ok, before you all start dragging the military into this one, I am personally in the US Army, some of you already know that, some may not, my job title is combat medic, so I'm extremely likely to get thrown to the front, though right now I work in a hospital, it can change on a seconds notice; my best friend, who is a medic right beside me, got sent home for a month because we found out just the other day that his brother died in Afghanistan fighting for the same army that both his brother and myself serve under. We don't blame Bush for us being there and for us getting killed, most of us anyways, and those same are willing to go, I mean I don't want to go but I see what's in front of me and given my specific job I know I may come to be needed. My point is that every one of us that goes over there understands, we don't point fingers and no matter what any of you people may think, no matter how crappy things look, we're helping someone; like the saying goes, "One mans terrorist is another mans hero;" around post all the time we notice the same thing, the public doesn't see the things the army wants them too, they see "# people die in" and "# die from" or "# die because," they don't see as many stories of where people are being aided and helped by our soldiers over there. My own boss at the hospital delivered babies in a makeshift hospital in the middle of the desert for Iraqi families who probably wouldn't have been able to have the baby in an environment where it would've had as good a chance of survival outside of a combat support hospital, we helped those people; we're teaching them how to take their area back for themselves, and I admit it'll be another Korea, we'll have our troops stationed there for years long after this war is over. My job field in the military work our asses off in the front, the back and the middle of the field to try to save as many of our men as possible, the one thing we need is support of our country, not to know that all we get back home is "We'll leave the country if 'blah blah blah'" My personal opinion towards those that say that line is not well, and I choose not to put that on here but I will say that those people should take a better look at themselves and realize what they're actually saying. The bottom line is this, if I die in trying to save another mans life on the field, I don't want my name appearing on someone's list as to why a president shouldn't have been re-elected, because if I go to Iraq I know I'll have to accept the fact that my life'll be on the line, and I know that in my situation I can accept that. Some of us in the military are opposed to the war, some of us aren't, some have no opinion, but just try to imagine how many of those Americans from that list would've been offended by having their name on that list, the list used by someone who probably isn't even willing to go into combat themselves, some of these men believed in what they were fighting for, and they understood the risk, and they probably wouldn't blame President Bush or probably even the Iraqi people, they'd probably instead thank God (whatever it was that individual knew as God) and thank them for giving them the opportunity to die for something they believed in. Now, in conclusion, before anyone potentially disrespects another fallen soldier, I want them to put on all of our battle gear, grab an M16 and then live in a tent in the desert for 12-18 months like some of the people I work with did
Pv2 Steven R. McQueen.............use that to start a list of military people who understand the risk and readily accept it, while at the same time not looking for a scapegoat to pin our fears on
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Cite your source. Different sites have different counts, but none of them are anywhere NEAR 100,000
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/- 14000-16000
http://www.mykeru.com/bodycount.html - >8000
http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE140052004 - ~10000
Those only count civilians. Not soldiers.
And even including soldiers, it's NOWHERE NEAR 100,000.
Article disproving 100,000 death theory: here (http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/)
Why does the number make a difference Tricia? Thousands have still been killed regardless- women and children who were not guilty of any crime.
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Cite your source. Different sites have different counts, but none of them are anywhere NEAR 100,000
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/- 14000-16000
http://www.mykeru.com/bodycount.html - >8000
http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE140052004 - ~10000
Those only count civilians. Not soldiers.
And even including soldiers, it's NOWHERE NEAR 100,000.
Article disproving 100,000 death theory: here (http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/)
Why does the number make a difference Tricia? Thousands have still been killed regardless- women and children who were not guilty of any crime.
it's a damn shame rosie, no doubt, but look at that number compared to the number of people Sadam has killed...innocent people...now that Hussain is gone, think of the number of people that have been saved from him...
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Try looking up Deuteronomy 2:33 thru 3:7.
Valid. Though, that was mostly a war... but there is def the sections on killing the women and children as well. I don't know if I would call it genocide because it's not so much a "race" being destroyed as it is several nations, but I see how that might be argued.
That assumes a singular morality.
tylor
Right. And since we are talking about MURDER in the context of a WESTERN RELIGIOS text, then I think you HAVE to use the western religious morality to judge it. Not to mention that we are talking about something that was said by a Christian. What other definition of "murder" would limey be using OTHER than the Christian definition he is familiar with?
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I never said any civilian deaths were acceptable. EVER. My heart breaks for those people who have lost loved ones. I'm not one who can stand in the street and cheer when people are killed, even if I dislike their country. Though many did just that when America was attacked, but I digress.
But I am so sick and tired of hearing people complain about Bush lying all the time and then continuing to perpetuate another lie.
I'm a stickler for accuracies, and I'm sorry, but there is a HUGE difference between 10,000 and 100,000 people no matter how you slice it.
As I said before, LOSS OF CIVILIAN LIFE IS TERRIBLE EITHER WAY, but there is a big difference between 10,000 and 100,000.
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And just because Brian brought it up, I read one estimate that Saddam and his actions directly caused the deaths of approximately 2,000,000 civilians.
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And just because Brian brought it up, I read one estimate that Saddam and his actions directly caused the deaths of approximately 2,000,000 civilians.
i didn't want to post a number, because I wasn't sure...but damn.
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And just because Brian brought it up, I read one estimate that Saddam and his actions directly caused the deaths of approximately 2,000,000 civilians.
i didn't want to post a number, because I wasn't sure...but damn.
yeah, I understand. The data is out there though, and pretty easy to find.
Last night I read one article detailing the acts of tortue performed by Uday, and how many athletes who lost early and caused "embarrassment" to Iraq suddenly just "disappeared".
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And just because Brian brought it up, I read one estimate that Saddam and his actions directly caused the deaths of approximately 2,000,000 civilians.
i didn't want to post a number, because I wasn't sure...but damn.
yeah, I understand. The data is out there though, and pretty easy to find.
Last night I read one article detailing the acts of tortue performed by Uday, and how many athletes who lost early and caused "embarrassment" to Iraq suddenly just "disappeared".
these guys were some crazy mofo's. sick sick bastads
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And just because Brian brought it up, I read one estimate that Saddam and his actions directly caused the deaths of approximately 2,000,000 civilians.
i didn't want to post a number, because I wasn't sure...but damn.
But keep in mind 2 things.
1) that's historic, not projected lives that will be saved. What that number tells us is "here's the number of lives you COULD have saved if you'd done this 10 years ago."
and 2) We have no evidence that the number of people who die in Iraq will be DECREASED with Sadam gone. THere are still plenty of warlords running around.
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wow, you guys are strong about your politics...
I'm canadian btw, but this affects me too! I hate Bush with passion, he's the devil LOL. I was really sad when he won...I wish people weren't so blind :cry: These people have a way of manipulating and lying and it's horrific.
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But keep in mind 2 things.
1) that's historic, not projected lives that will be saved. What that number tells us is "here's the number of lives you COULD have saved if you'd done this 10 years ago."
and 2) We have no evidence that the number of people who die in Iraq will be DECREASED with Sadam gone. THere are still plenty of warlords running around.
Bush Sr. tried and failed to catch Saddam 14 years ago. Did Clinton go into Iraq 10 years ago? I can't remember to be honest, but if he did, he failed as well. Sure it took us a damn long time to get rid of the guy, but we finally did, and I for one, think the Iraqi civilians are a lot safer now.
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OK, and who cares about Iraq's business? Americans don't control the world, they dont even understand eastern society :roll: Let the iraqis decide whats best for them....
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OK, and who cares about Iraq's business? Americans don't control the world, they dont even understand eastern society :roll: Let the iraqis decide whats best for them....
How could the Iraqi people decide whats best for them when Saddam was in power?
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OK, and who cares about Iraq's business? Americans don't control the world, they dont even understand eastern society :roll: Let the iraqis decide whats best for them....
How could the Iraqi people decide whats best for them when Saddam was in power?
They could have tried to fight back...it does happen. And to be honest, I'm not ready to believe everything I hear. The media is full of crap.
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However though, the americans were still wrong in sticking around AFTER they caught sadam, its like, ok, he's gone, now YOU decide that you want
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OK, and who cares about Iraq's business? Americans don't control the world, they dont even understand eastern society :roll: Let the iraqis decide whats best for them....
How could the Iraqi people decide whats best for them when Saddam was in power?
They could have tried to fight back...it does happen. And to be honest, I'm not ready to believe everything I hear. The media is full of crap.
Saddam had been killing his people for years...you don't think they tried to fight back? Come on...
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OK, and who cares about Iraq's business? Americans don't control the world, they dont even understand eastern society :roll: Let the iraqis decide whats best for them....
How could the Iraqi people decide whats best for them when Saddam was in power?
They could have tried to fight back...it does happen. And to be honest, I'm not ready to believe everything I hear. The media is full of crap.
Saddam had been killing his people for years...you don't think they tried to fight back? Come on...
it doesn't matter anyway, they continued to bully them around after they caught him.
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OK, and who cares about Iraq's business? Americans don't control the world, they dont even understand eastern society :roll: Let the iraqis decide whats best for them....
The funny thing about your statement is that the Iraqi population was not in a position to decide anything for themselves until the coalition interfered with Iraq's business.
However though, the americans were still wrong in sticking around AFTER they caught sadam, its like, ok, he's gone, now YOU decide that you want
Have you thought that through? Do you honestly think that, in a power vacuum, everything would just miraculously work out in the best interests of the Iraqi people?
-Kev
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I don't care, whatever happened, I think it's wrong!
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it doesn't matter anyway, they continued to bully them around after they caught him.
our troops are there to help. shit ain't perfect there, and it's going to take a good gad damn long time until it does, but atleast Saddam isn't killing millions of more people.
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There's no point in trying to help; this is America, not the middle-east, not Iraq, not Afghanistan, and certainly not Vietnam.
Bush (or whoever you consider in control and at fault with this) needs to worry about his people and his country first. Without us, he's nothing and in deep shit without millions of Americans supporting him.
Even after he is finished, worrying about us, there's no point in "helping" other nations; in what ways have we helped Iraq? There have been numerous casualties and soldiers killed in the process of trying to imprison Hussein, who - while in power - killed, probably, fewer people than have died in the past two years over seas. How is this helping anyone: the soldiers' families, Iraq and its people, the soldiers and civilians themselves? Answer that validly and you get a cookie.
(Good luck!)
It's said to be helping America as a whole - you know, the oil thing. That should help our economy - the same economy which was totally fucked when You Know Who was elected in office four years ago. Everything is so contrary or cancels something out. Instead of going to war over oil to help the economy, just avoid it all totally and DON'T elect a dumbass who WILL lower the economy - subtly if not noticeably. Instead of giving yourself a papercut and robbing a store to get band-aids, avoid it all together and don't use paper. It's simple; we're just a very retarded and illogical country. That's why I'm moving to France.
So . . . the thirty-five-year-old question remains: What are we doing over there?
Blame yourself - and if you didn't vote for Bush . . . impeach.
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There have been numerous casualties and soldiers killed in the process of trying to imprison Hussein, who - while in power - killed, probably, fewer people than have died in the past two years over seas. How is this helping anyone: the soldiers' families, Iraq and its people, the soldiers and civilians themselves? Answer that validly and you get a cookie.
(Good luck!)
It was stated earlier in this thread by Tricia, that Hussain has killed 2,000,000 civilian Iraqis. Andrew stated that this was over a period of time (10 or more years).
Okay. Do the math.
2,000,000 people dived by 10 years = 200,000 people killed a year (on average) by Hussain.
What's the total since we've been there? Tricia also stated that the claim of 100,000 Iraqi civilian lives was untrue to this point. So the death toll is well below 200,000.
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Actually, Saddam gained power in 1979. That would mean more than 10 years. (and read the Andrew's post again, he never said those murders happened over 10 years, he said they should have been stopped 10 years ago.)
Saddam was evil, I never said he wasn't. That doesn't give America the right to attack countries. Another problem, we did not use diplomatic means. We LIED to the UN. Then, we ignored the UN. We told a leader of a country that he had 48 hours to leave his country...HIS country. That's like some other country telling you to leave. LEAVE! Saddam thought he was the best country in the world. So, of course he wasn't going to leave.
Also, I posted an article that concluded the number 100,000 is still possible. That same article was written after the Slate magazine (which on the same site it said "Why do Americans hate Democrats"...woo, that was what I wanted to see.). I understand it's just guessing--no one will ever know how many people really have died since Marth 19, 2003. But throwing 100,000 to the side saying it's wrong isn't correct either.
I know some may not believe this--I approved of the war in Afghanistan. That's when we were going after the person that attacked us on 9-11-01. Saddam was not involved with 9-11. Yet, we were told this in 2002.
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Actually, Saddam gained power in 1979. That would mean more than 10 years. (and read the Andrew's post again, he never said those murders happened over 10 years, he said they should have been stopped 10 years ago.)
Also, I posted an article that concluded the number 100,000 is still possible. That same article was written after the Slate magazine (which on the same site it said "Why do Americans hate Democrats"...woo, that was what I wanted to see.). I understand it's just guessing--no one will ever know how many people really have died since Marth 19, 2003. But throwing 100,000 to the side saying it's wrong isn't correct either.
I know some may not believe this--I approved of the war in Afghanistan. That's when we were going after the person that attacked us on 9-11-01. Saddam was not involved with 9-11. Yet, we were told this in 2002.
I mis-read andrews post. sorry about that.
ok. then the average would be 80,000 a year. that is if he started killing people as soon as he came into power. I still think the death toll is less than that.
don't get me wrong either though...i think it sucks mad cow balls that people are dying, however, i think Iraq will eventually become a safer place for it's people, now that hussain is outta there
also, we are still lookin' for Bin Laden. it seems like poeple think we've forgotten about him, but we haven't. We'll catch his skinny ass.
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I didn't say we* weren't...but we haven't found him...
Q: Why haven't we found Osama, yet?
Bush's A: Because he's hiding
*changed were to we.
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I didn't say were weren't...but we haven't found him...
Q: Why haven't we found Osama, yet?
Bush's A: Because he's hiding
i didn't mean you specifically...
Saddam was hiding too...and we found him. So i think we'll find Bin Laden too.
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Not with all the ties!
*watches Bushes make knots with bin Laden family*
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Not with all the ties!
*watches Bushes make knots with bin Laden family*
Forgot about that!!
The bin Laden family got to fly home 9-11-01, when the normal American could not.
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I didn't say were weren't...but we haven't found him...
Q: Why haven't we found Osama, yet?
Bush's A: Because he's hiding
i didn't mean you specifically...
Saddam was hiding too...and we found him. So i think we'll find Bin Laden too.
Depends on how much more effort we put in to it. when my history teacher came back he said that we weren't putting as much as we could in to finding Osama, but then again that was a year ago, so things could have changed since then.
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Not with all the ties!
*watches Bushes make knots with bin Laden family*
Forgot about that!!
The bin Laden family got to fly home 9-11-01, when the normal American could not.
that, I can agree with you, was plain stupid.
since that, any ties that you know of that were made? probably not, i don't know for sure.
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There have been numerous casualties and soldiers killed in the process of trying to imprison Hussein, who - while in power - killed, probably, fewer people than have died in the past two years over seas. How is this helping anyone: the soldiers' families, Iraq and its people, the soldiers and civilians themselves? Answer that validly and you get a cookie.
(Good luck!)
It was stated earlier in this thread by Tricia, that Hussain has killed 2,000,000 civilian Iraqis. Andrew stated that this was over a period of time (10 or more years).
Okay. Do the math.
2,000,000 people dived by 10 years = 200,000 people killed a year (on average) by Hussain.
What's the total since we've been there? Tricia also stated that the claim of 100,000 Iraqi civilian lives was untrue to this point. So the death toll is well below 200,000.
I just pulled 10 years out of my ass.
We should have stopped them as soon as we knew they were going on. Whenevr that was.
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We should have stopped them as soon as we knew they were going on. Whenevr that was.
i think we can all agree on that
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What other definition of "murder" would limey be using OTHER than the Christian definition he is familiar with?
He could be using a legal definition, other secular definitions, and then there are pagan influences. If you want to use western religious, and even christian, examples, just ignore me and go back to decorating your christmas tree. :wink:
tylor
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Cite your source. Different sites have different counts, but none of them are anywhere NEAR 100,000
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/- 14000-16000
http://www.mykeru.com/bodycount.html - >8000
http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE140052004 - ~10000
Those only count civilians. Not soldiers.
And even including soldiers, it's NOWHERE NEAR 100,000.
Article disproving 100,000 death theory: here (http://slate.msn.com/id/2108887/)
Why does the number make a difference Tricia? Thousands have still been killed regardless- women and children who were not guilty of any crime.
it's a damn shame rosie, no doubt, but look at that number compared to the number of people Sadam has killed...innocent people...now that Hussain is gone, think of the number of people that have been saved from him...
You think i don't know that? My grandpa was a British diplomat there during Sadam's rise. My point was merely that the number of civilians killed is awful, whether its 10 for 10,000. I was for this war- if only to get Sadam out, i KNOW what went on- don't patronise me. I disagree with the war now based on how it was sold to the British/American public- a 'mistake'? BULLSHIT. And the way the American government has handled the whole situation in a 'might is right' manor- to the point where civil war is just on the horizon, and the way it failed to hold anyone accountable for the Abu Ghraib abuses.
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The soldiers involved with the prison abuses in Iraq are being court marshalled.
3 have so far plead guilty. One was sentenced to 8 years in prison, one to one year, and the third (most recently) who was accused of watching but not participating was demoted to Private and lost pay.
7 total soldiers have been charged so far.
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The bin Laden family got to fly home 9-11-01, when the normal American could not.
Somebody puts too much faith in Moore. Check your facts. Yes, a bunch Saudi nationals, including members of the bin Ladin family, were allowed to fly out of the country shortly after 9/11, after the FBI checked them out. However, the flights started out on September 14th, 2001, the day after US airspace was reopened to civilian traffic.
Don't believe me?
Fearing reprisals against Saudi nationals, the Saudi government asked for help in getting some of its citizens out of the country….we have found that the request came to the attention of Richard Clarke and that each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure.
No commercial planes, including chartered flights, were permitted to fly into, out of, or within the United States until September 13, 2001. After the airspace reopened, six chartered flights with 142 people, mostly Saudi Arabian nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. One flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin. We have found no credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi Arabian nationals departed the United States before the reopening of national airspace.
The Saudi flights were screened by law enforcement officials, primarily the FBI, to ensure that people on these flights did not pose a threat to national security, and that nobody of interest to the FBI with regard to the 9/11 investigation was allowed to leave the country. Thirty of the 142 people on these flights were interviewed by the FBI, including 22 of the 26 people (23 passengers and 3 private security guards) on the Bin Ladin flight. Many were asked detailed questions. None of the passengers stated that they had any recent contact with Usama Bin Ladin or knew anything about terrorist activity.
The FBI checked a variety of databases for information on the Bin Ladin flight passengers and searched the aircraft. It is unclear whether the TIPOFF terrorist watchlist was checked. At our request, the Terrorist Screening Center has rechecked the names of individuals on the flight manifests of these six Saudi flights against the current TIPOFF watchlist. There are no matches.
The FBI has concluded that nobody was allowed to depart on these six flights who the FBI wanted to interview in connection with the 9/11 attacks, or who the FBI later concluded had any involvement in those attacks. To date, we have uncovered no evidence to contradict this conclusion.
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I just wanted to say that i respect everyone's opinions, but i have seen some 'facts' stated that are untrue.
First of all, Bush is not starting up the draft. He has said the all volenteer military works well. The draft was a bill that two liberal democrats tried to start up so they can blame bush. Almost everyone voted no on it, and there is no way the president could possibly start up the draft. It is impossible, he couldnt get it passes even if he wanted to. So stop worrying.
Also, the economy is not Bush's fault. It is because of the terrorist attack, and the war that caused it. The terrorist attack killed the economy. And now Bush is trying to fix it. Dont worry, it will get a lot better. After all Bush is using some classic republican policys used by Reagan, and we all know how good those policys were.
My advice to everyone: please dont worry. Bush will only make things better rather than worse. And over 50% of Americans agree with me, because after all, bush did in fact win.
btw, im new here. :D
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The bin Laden family got to fly home 9-11-01, when the normal American could not.
Somebody puts too much faith in Moore.
I actually got it from a lady that called a radio station telling about her story of losing her daughter that day...I don't listen to Michael Moore, unless I read it as a quote. I have been to his website no more than 4 times...and even then I didn't read much of his stuff.
Thank you for puting the 9-11 report up.
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The soldiers involved with the prison abuses in Iraq are being court marshalled.
3 have so far plead guilty. One was sentenced to 8 years in prison, one to one year, and the third (most recently) who was accused of watching but not participating was demoted to Private and lost pay.
7 total soldiers have been charged so far.
Weren't the soldiers under order to do so?
That's really a question--I have heard they were ordered to do it, so why should they be punished?
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Well, as for them being ordered, the word recieved back in Madigan over in Ft. Lewis is that they were ordered to make the iraqi prisoners talk using some "outside of the box" techniques, some of them that they were told to use were flat wrong to begin with, and I think the soldiers being punished took it ALOT farther than their superiors had thought they would, using techniques not even hinted towards them, however I could be wrong, we have come across alot of people in our military we know as "s**tbags"
Ok, I can't not say this anymore, whoever it is that has a sig where you replaced the stars from our flag with the symbol of the Nazi Empire, you disgust me, period......
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Ok, I can't not say this anymore, whoever it is that has a sig where you replaced the stars from our flag with the symbol of the Nazi Empire, you disgust me, period......
I made that sig. But I got the picture from a different site....Which, I do see some comparisons to the Bush regime. Like, if you tell a lie long, hard enough, people start to believe it.
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If you wanna compare Nazi Germany to the United States today, I suggest that you do a whole lot more reading. Where is the authoritarian government? Where is the command economy? Where are the executions of dissenters? Where is the genocide? Where are the territory wars? Where is the racist ideology? Where is the unrestricted submarine warfare? Where is the goverment owned propaganda machine? Where is the personality cult? Where are the youth orders a la the HJ and BdM? Where is the hyperinflation? Where is the military rule? Where is the full war? Where is the rationing? Where are the rallies? Where is the SS?
There is none of that. It is only a smear against Bush and his administration. Therefore, I invoke Godwin's law. Serious discussion in this thread is OVER!
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Also, the economy is not Bush's fault. It is because of the terrorist attack, and the war that caused it. The terrorist attack killed the economy. And now Bush is trying to fix it. Dont worry, it will get a lot better. After all Bush is using some classic republican policys used by Reagan, and we all know how good those policys were.
I think you forgot your /sarcasm tags, yo.
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I didn't say you had to agree with me. I said I see comparisons...That's a personal opinion, if you don't agree--that's fine. Saying that all serious discussion is over is fine...if that's what you think.
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The soldiers involved with the prison abuses in Iraq are being court marshalled.
3 have so far plead guilty. One was sentenced to 8 years in prison, one to one year, and the third (most recently) who was accused of watching but not participating was demoted to Private and lost pay.
7 total soldiers have been charged so far.
Oh *clap clap* someone lost pay? Oh boo hoo, someone got 8 years? I don't call that being held accountable for degrading the moral worth of someone's life, not by substantive or procedural justice. Its a disgrace. Rumsfeld should've resigned; it should've gone to the top of the chain of command. This is not a one off problem- its an inherant problem in the U.S forces- take a look at Guantanamo Bay.
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You're talking about an adminstration that ran their campaign on being "moral," Rosie...What you want will probably never happen because the American media hasn't really put a lot of pressure on the situation. It's not in the news everyday, and when it is the network gets blamed for "only showing the negative side of the war."
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The soldiers involved with the prison abuses in Iraq are being court marshalled.
3 have so far plead guilty. One was sentenced to 8 years in prison, one to one year, and the third (most recently) who was accused of watching but not participating was demoted to Private and lost pay.
7 total soldiers have been charged so far.
Oh *clap clap* someone lost pay? Oh boo hoo, someone got 8 years? I don't call that being held accountable for degrading the moral worth of someone's life, not by substantive or procedural justice. Its a disgrace. Rumsfeld should've resigned; it should've gone to the top of the chain of command. This is not a one off problem- its an inherant problem in the U.S forces- take a look at Guantanamo Bay.
Your sarcasm is unappreciated. You said nothing happened. I just pointed out that they are taking some action. I never said what I thought of the action, I just said it was happening.
You don't like it...IT'S NOT MY FAULT. I don't run this country.
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The soldiers involved with the prison abuses in Iraq are being court marshalled.
3 have so far plead guilty. One was sentenced to 8 years in prison, one to one year, and the third (most recently) who was accused of watching but not participating was demoted to Private and lost pay.
7 total soldiers have been charged so far.
Oh *clap clap* someone lost pay? Oh boo hoo, someone got 8 years? I don't call that being held accountable for degrading the moral worth of someone's life, not by substantive or procedural justice. Its a disgrace. Rumsfeld should've resigned; it should've gone to the top of the chain of command. This is not a one off problem- its an inherant problem in the U.S forces- take a look at Guantanamo Bay.
Your sarcasm is unappreciated. You said nothing happened. I just pointed out that they are taking some action. I never said what I thought of the action, I just said it was happening.
You don't like it...IT'S NOT MY FAULT. I don't run this country.
Did i ever say it was your fault!? No! I was expressing an opinion- albeit one that i feel very strongly about, but i didn't for one second imply it was your fault.
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U.S. Torture at Guantánamo 'Increasingly Repressive'
By Andrew Buncombe
The Independent U.K.
Wednesday 01 December 2004
The Red Cross has accused President George Bush's administration of overseeing the intentional physical and psychological torture of prisoners held at Guantánamo Bay. It also accused doctors and medics of liaising with interrogators in what was a "flagrant violation of medical ethics".
In an extraordinary confidential report to the US authorities, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said the military guards and interrogators at the prison deliberately used psychological and physical coercion that was "tantamount to torture". It said the treatment it had witnessed had been increasingly "refined and repressive".
The report by the Red Cross - the only independent organisation permitted to visit the prisoners - was written after a visit by its inspection team in June. It said it discovered a system designed to break the will of the 550 prisoners - four of them British citizens - through "humiliating acts, solitary confinement, temperature extremes [and] use of forced positions".
It added: "The construction of such a system whose stated purpose is the production of intelligence cannot be considered other than an intentional system of cruel, unusual and degrading treatment and a form of torture."
The ICRC refused to confirm the authenticity of the report yesterday, the contents of which were reported by the New York Times. While the organisation previously criticised the treatment of prisoners at the camp, it said it could only ensure its continued access to such prisoners around the world by insisting its comments remained private.
"The contents of the ICRC's representations and reports are confidential and for the exclusive attention of the relevant detaining authorities," it said in a statement. "The ICRC uses its exchanges with governments to make clear its concerns and recommendations regarding the situation in places of detention and to demand changes when necessary. Guantánamo Bay is no exception."
But while the report is remarkable for the force of its language, the allegations it makes are not new. Earlier this year, four British prisoners who had been released without charge from the jail after more than two years, compiled a detailed report that alleged inmates were subjected to a regime of Abu Ghraib-style torture, abuse and sexual humiliation.
Louise Christian, a London-based lawyer who represents two of the four Britons still being held, said last night: "I welcome this report but I wish it had come earlier. I know that Martin Mubanga [one of the prisoners] has complained of torture and I know that Feroz Abbasi [another prisoner] says he has been tortured and subjected to religious and sexual humiliation. All these stories are very consistent with one another." She added: "I hope the US government will stand up and take some notice. This is a scandal that will not go away."
The ICRC report also alleges doctors have been assisting interrogators by providing them with information about the mental health of inmates and their vulnerabilities. The Britons released in March claimed that the treatment carried out was carefully choreographed to have maximum impact. Michael Ratner, director of the New York-based Centre for Constitutional Rights, a non-profit group which has filed various lawsuits on behalf of prisoners, said: "This report is remarkable ... [What is happening] is a serious violation of international criminal law.
Larry Di Rita, a spokesman for the Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, said that the Red Cross officials had "made their view known". "It's their point of view [but it is not shared by the administration]," he said.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/120204B.shtml
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U.S. Generals in Iraq Were Told of Abuse Early, Inquiry Finds
By Josh White
The Washington Post
Wednesday 01 December 2004
A confidential report to Army generals in Iraq in December 2003 warned that members of an elite military and CIA task force were abusing detainees, a finding delivered more than a month before Army investigators received the photographs from Abu Ghraib prison that touched off investigations into prisoner mistreatment.
The report, which was not released publicly and was recently obtained by The Washington Post, concluded that some U.S. arrest and detention practices at the time could "technically" be illegal. It also said coalition fighters could be feeding the Iraqi insurgency by "making gratuitous enemies" as they conducted sweeps netting hundreds of detainees who probably did not belong in prison and holding them for months at a time.
The investigation, by retired Col. Stuart A. Herrington, also found that members of Task Force 121 - a joint Special Operations and CIA mission searching for weapons of mass destruction and high-value targets including Saddam Hussein - had been abusing detainees throughout Iraq and had been using a secret interrogation facility to hide their activities.
Herrington's findings are the latest in a series of confidential reports to come to light about detainee abuse in Iraq. Until now, U.S. military officials have characterized the problem as one largely confined to the military prison at Abu Ghraib - a situation they first learned about in January 2004. But Herrington's report shows that U.S. military leaders in Iraq were told of such allegations even before then, and that problems were not restricted to Abu Ghraib. Herrington, a veteran of the U.S. counterinsurgency effort in Vietnam, warned that such harsh tactics could imperil U.S. efforts to quell the Iraqi insurgency - a prediction echoed months later by a military report and other reviews of the war effort.
U.S. treatment of detainees remains under challenge. Representatives of the International Committee of the Red Cross recently told U.S. military officials that the treatment of inmates held at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, was "cruel, inhumane and degrading" (story, Page A10). Herrington's report, which was commissioned by Maj. Gen. Barbara Fast, the top intelligence officer in Iraq, said some detainees dropped off at central U.S. detention facilities other than Abu Ghraib had clearly been beaten by their captors.
"Detainees captured by TF 121 have shown injuries that caused examining medical personnel to note that 'detainee shows signs of having been beaten,' " according to the report, which later concluded: "It seems clear that TF 121 needs to be reined in with respect to its treatment of detainees."
A group of Navy SEALs who worked as part of the task force has been charged with abuse in connection with the deaths of two detainees they arrested in the field. One died in a shower room at Abu Ghraib on Nov. 4, 2003, a month before Herrington arrived for his review.
A military source who participated in Task Force 20, the predecessor to TF 121, said the task forces comprised several 12-man units that had targeted missions, such as searching for Hussein loyalists and terrorists. TF 20, which had about 1,000 soldiers, incorporated Army Rangers, members of Delta Force and Special Forces units working with CIA agents. They planned their missions nearly autonomously and answered either directly to the theater commander or to officials in Washington, the source said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the missions were classified.
Task Force 121 added Navy SEAL units but was slightly smaller overall. Herrington wrote that an officer in charge of interrogations at a high-value target detention facility in Baghdad told him that prisoners taken by TF 121 showed signs of having been beaten.
Herrington asked the officer whether he had alerted his superiors to the problem, and the officer replied: "Everyone knows about it."
While several investigations have been completed into the Abu Ghraib scandal and U.S. interrogation practices in Iraq, an official military inquiry into the detention activities of Special Operations forces has not been released. That probe, headed by Brig. Gen. Richard P. Formica, was expected to be presented to Congress earlier this year, but a Pentagon spokesman said it is ongoing.
Of the Herrington report, a Pentagon official said top generals in Iraq, including Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, who at the time directed U.S. forces there, reported the alleged abuses to officials at U.S. Central Command, which oversees military activities in the Middle East. The official said TF 121 was investigated, but he could not provide results.
"The Herrington report was taken very seriously," said the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the report has not been released.
The report also provided an early account of the practice of holding some detainees - sometimes called "ghost detainees" - in secret and keeping them from international humanitarian organizations. Herrington also wrote that agents from other government agencies, which commonly refers to the CIA, regularly kept ghost detainees by not logging their arrests.
Nearly six months later, Defense Department officials were forced to acknowledge the practice because of the Abu Ghraib scandal. Soldiers who worked at the prison said several detainees were hidden, and a prison logbook showed a consistent stream of them from October 2003 to January 2004.
Herrington, who is considered an expert in human intelligence operations, ran programs during Operation Desert Storm and in Panama and was part of the controversial Phoenix Program, which targeted the roots of the Viet Cong insurgency in Vietnam. He compiled his report after a week-long trip to Iraq beginning Dec. 2, 2003, joined by a military intelligence officer and an Army intelligence official from the Pentagon.
His ultimate conclusion was that much needed to be done to increase intelligence capabilities, which he called below average, though he praised Fast's determination.
"Given the fact that the United States and its coalition partners paid and continue to pay a steep price in losses and national treasure to lay our hands on these detainees, it is disappointing that the opportunity to thoroughly and professionally exploit this source pool has not been maximized, in spite of your best efforts and those of several hundred MI [military intelligence] soldiers," Herrington wrote to Fast in the Dec. 12 report. "Even one year ago, we would have salivated at the prospect of being able to talk to people like the hundreds who are now in our custody. Now that we have them, we have failed to devote the planning and resources to optimize this mission."
Herrington, contacted by telephone, declined to discuss the report. A Pentagon official said Fast personally requested Herrington's visit, and the report indicates Fast was interested in improving U.S. intelligence and detention operations, saying that "in spite of efforts to upgrade this effort, [she] remained concerned about its state of health."
In the 13-page report, Herrington wrote that overcrowding and a lack of resources caused the Army to use "primitive prison accommodations" for even the most important targets. He said that led to the loss of considerable significant intelligence and might have fueled the Iraqi insurgency.
He added that some detainees were arrested because targets were not at home when homes were raided. A family member was instead captured and then released when the target turned himself in - a practice that, Herrington wrote, "has a 'hostage' feel to it."
A separate report by the Center for Army Lessons Learned, issued this past May and intended for internal use, gave the sense that some Army tactics served to "alienate common Iraqis who initially supported the coalition."
The 134-page CALL report singled out the practice of detaining female family members to force wanted Iraqi males to turn themselves in, similar to Herrington's findings.
"It is a practice in some U.S. units to detain family members of anti-coalition suspects in an effort to induce the suspects to turn themselves in, in exchange for the release of their family members," the report stated. The CALL report also was critical of the delays in notifying family members about the status of detainees held in U.S. custody, reminding family members of Hussein's tactics.
Herrington's report also noted that sweeps pulled in hundreds and even thousands of detainees who had no connection to the war. Abu Ghraib, for example, swelled to several thousand more detainees than it could handle. Herrington wrote that aggressive and indiscriminate tactics by the 4th Infantry Division, rounding up random scores of detainees and "dumping them at the door," was a glaring example.
As the United States recently has picked up its counterinsurgency efforts, the number of new detainees has again surged.
"Between the losers and dead end elements from the former regime and foreign fighters, there are enough people in Iraq who already don't like us," Herrington wrote. "Adding to these numbers by conducting sweep operations . . . is counterproductive to the Coalition's efforts to win the cooperation of the Iraqi citizenry. Similarly, mistreatment of captives as has been reported to me and our team is unacceptable, and bound to be known by the population."
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/120204C.shtml