NESSAholics.com
Vanessa Carlton => General Vanessa Carlton Discussion => Topic started by: alison on October 11, 2007, 01:43:26 am
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i have been a vc fan for a very long time...be not nobody was one of the first albums i ever owned.
i saw her live at the roxy earlier this year and i don't know when i was more excited for an album.
i must say i am thoroughly disappointed in heroes & thieves.
vanessa's performance at the roxy was epic...just her and her piano, and you could really feel the emotion and the beauty of the songs.
this album is totally pop synthesized.
i had an amazing live performance of hands on me that i loved, but on the album i feel like shes playing with a metronome. one of the most brilliant things about her work was her ability to switch tempo.
fools like me has by far the best lyrics of any song...especially the last 3 lines which i am obsessed with. but the instrumentals are completely overwhelming and take over the rest of the song.
i just don't understand why sooo many songs fail to have the piano as the lead instrument...i do not like vanessa because of her voice..i like her songwriting/pianoplaying/singing combo.
i just feel completely blindsighted...what artist does entirely acoustic live performances when their album is pop?
its frusterating that this album had 5 star potential and its only like a 3, MAYBE a 3.5
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Hmmm well its interesting that now the truth starts to come out.... I said this under the ratings of the album post. I agree with you, it's commercial.
But you know, Nessa has obviously chosen commercial success over musical genuis! lol
Listen to it like 20 times, and you will start to like more of the songs. I was really annoyed originally- I felt cheated.
I agree with you though- songs like FLM and HOM could have been 5 stars, instead all the other instruments dominate. I wish there was more piano!
But hopefully nessa will get her wish and the album will be wonderfully successful. Then maybe after that we will go back to real good ol' Nessa music :)
In the mean time, enjoy what we have been given. The Cd is still good, despite its flaws, and the lyrics are definitely a development from previous. (although sections can be a tad tacky in some points)
It's interesting not many others have posted here- I would have thought this would have been a hot discussion topic.
Best Album would probably be BNNB, because of its Purity.
Katherine Ann Marie xox
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It's a mix of both though, it's commercial yet personal imo.
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I think the SONGS as a whole are fantastic. I agree that the production on some is grating. But as weird as it sounds (and as overdone as it seems to be said) listening to the album a couple of times through can really make you fall in love with it.
Even songs whose productions I was not a particular fan of have made it into my heart because of little things in them. Hands on Me, Fools Like Me, and even This Time all sound just right like this. I slightly prefer the latter two live, but I don't know... something about this album evolves.
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Personally, I'm really happy with the album...the songs are well written ,music was good and the vocals were spectacular..and i really dont think it was over produced......her vocals werent touched for one thing and the only bits that might seem overproduced may have only seemed so because of the backup vocals and stuff like the chorus of hands on me....but when i really do think about it, it isnt overproduced.....
I agree with what someone else said, BNN was overproduced at points.......HAT isnt, or doesnt show such amounts...
I'm not really sure if it's commercial...just compare it to everything else out there and it seems to resemble alot of the indie stuff than the mainstream.......
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My response
1. where the hell have you been for the past 5 years? you should have been on here! :D
2. each album is a progression of the last
3. this album shows more maturity in vanessa than in previous albums, there's also more complex arrangements and it's a lot more into than bnn. BNN had simple arrangements where you could i dentify each instrument and a given point. H & T challenges that and is wickedly awesome! I just feel that H & T is more complete than previous albums.
mike
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i have been a vc fan for a very long time...be not nobody was one of the first albums i ever owned.
i saw her live at the roxy earlier this year and i don't know when i was more excited for an album.
i must say i am thoroughly disappointed in heroes & thieves.
vanessa's performance at the roxy was epic...just her and her piano, and you could really feel the emotion and the beauty of the songs.
this album is totally pop synthesized.
i had an amazing live performance of hands on me that i loved, but on the album i feel like shes playing with a metronome. one of the most brilliant things about her work was her ability to switch tempo.
fools like me has by far the best lyrics of any song...especially the last 3 lines which i am obsessed with. but the instrumentals are completely overwhelming and take over the rest of the song.
i just don't understand why sooo many songs fail to have the piano as the lead instrument...i do not like vanessa because of her voice..i like her songwriting/pianoplaying/singing combo.
i just feel completely blindsighted...what artist does entirely acoustic live performances when their album is pop?
its frusterating that this album had 5 star potential and its only like a 3, MAYBE a 3.5
3.5 out of 5 isn't bad! (btw, you don't think that BNN is mega-pop production?)
Sounds like you got used to hearing the new songs as bare-bones productions, with just piano and vocals. Might be nice to hear live, but we're talking about an album here. A live performance goes right past your face; an album is a living, breathing document that must be approached as an entirely different animal, especially from a production standpoint. There is SO MUCH to be considered when making an album
that I can't begin to go into it here.
I'll admit that hearing drums on C'est La Vie initially threw me for a loop back in '04. After I gave it further listens, it made perfect sense. That's why SJ is a great producer.
Having H&T as a piano/vox based album would sound like a bunch of demos, and be an exhausting listen over the course of 45-60 mins.
Listen again....as I will. It will take a while to process these songs that we have lived with for literally years.
Dan/NS
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yea what dan said =P
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I feel as if this album is more ... plastic... and artificial. I liked her and the piano... The whistling on Fools like me is horrific, and the constant use of pitch bend just screams Rap/R&B to me... It is growing on me. But the last two albums when I hear them I said instantly WOW....
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I think this one is much more "Wow" than the others personally.
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I think this one is much more "Wow" than the others personally.
:arrow: And I would have to agree.
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I agree with what someone else said - if every song was bare-bones piano/vocal then I would be asleep by the end of "Spring Street".
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I was a little thrilled when I saw this thread, b/c it was exactly what the doctor ordered, b/c it hits on the nail what I'm thinkin'.
For the most part, I'm VERY disappointed w/ this album; it's HORRIBLE. Just GOD awful. So bad, that in fact, I don't know where to begin. But I'll begin w/ Vannie's vocals, since I thought that was the biggest flaw of the album. And what I'm about to say is not out of malice at all, but out of concern for V's career and how her music [and material for her discography] has declined since BE NOT NOBODY. But lemme start w/ how her singing, b/c that was the MAIN flaw [and possibly WORSE one yet] that stood out for me on HAT.
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but w/ each album, it seems like Vannie's vocals become [not off-key per se], but more and more monotone. I honestly don't know what she's trying to prove by singing more out of tune w/ each album. The only song she actually SANG on that album was Lolita Fairytale. The rest, I don't know what the hell she thought she was doing, but that wasn't singing-- AT ALL. W/ HARMONIUM, her vocals were more monotone than I liked and more monotone than when she performed the songs from HARMONIUM live, but I still thought it was a great album. The songs that V sounded more [or the most] monotone on the album than live were Who's To Say, Papa, Afterglow, HAWBTW and White Houses. The rest of the songs she actually SANG IN TUNE, and those were the songs I enjoyed singing along to the most. I don't think HAT is even remotely WORTH singing along to... unless you're tone-ass deaf.
When I first listened to HARMONIUM, I only liked half the songs; by the end of the [3] weeks I had the album, I loved practically ALL the songs. BNN was a hit [mainly b/c VC actually SANG her ass off on all the songs], HARMONIUM was getting there, and HAT is DEFINITELY a miss vocally. For starters, the lyrics sound more juvenille than ever, like something a 8-year old would write, even more junvenille than BNN. I was actually expecting something better, but HAT fell short... BIG time. Like Avril Lavigne latest album [which isn't as good as UNDER MY SKIN (which didn't do as good as her debut, but is much better than her latest, THE BEST DAMN THING lyrics and material-wise among other things) and her debut, LET GO], V's latest LP [lyric-wise, among other factors] has regressed, even BEFORE her debut. But at least Avril Lavigne actually SANG the songs on her latest release. V didn't sing in tune AT ALL, except on Lolita Fairytale. Her vocals were pretty much one-note [not to mention very boring and unexciting to me].
I almost cried I was so disappointed w/ the singing. If V only SANG the songs, that album would've been SOOOO much better. I don't know what the hell she was thinking, believing that maybe we wouldn't notice how flat her singing was. Or maybe the people directly involved w/ the production of the album [as well as her label] were afraid to tell her that her monotone singing was ATROCIOUS. Or perhaps she was cutting corners w/ this cut. I don't know what the problem is, but V's had more than 2 1/2 years to come out w/ a kick-ass album, if not 3. And featuring Stevie NICKS on that album of all people. [I'm not even a Fleetwood Mac fan.] I'm not saying the woman [Stevie Nicks] can't sing, b/c she can; her voice [like Macy Gray's] just sounds terrible. Even her ex, Stephen Jenkins sounded better singing background than Stevie. Even w/ HARMONIUM I was willing to overlook Van's more-monotone-than-usual vocals b/c the material on the album was pretty good [partial courtesy of her ex and Ron Fair]. Now I can almost understand why her label gave her the blessed boot.
V may think her album is da bomb-diggity and her best work yet, but I beg [w/ all due respect], b/c it's about as far from that as it can get. It's very sad that V is wasting her vocal talent by singing in a monotone voice, b/c she's MUCH MORE capable than this. [I think 'Home' is from her demo, but I'm not sure.] She has a clear, beautiful voice [not to mention that she kind of sounds like Jewel], but she totally did herself under by doing a hack job on HAT w/ her dull, flat, boring monotone vocals. Yeah, [like some fans] I'm disappointed that songs such as 'Best Behavior' and 'All Is Well' didn't make the cut, but at this point it doesn't really matter anyway, b/c HAT is such a crappy album. On 'The One' [the live version w/ the shitty quality] V sang the song like her life literally DEPENDED on singing it right. She sang the song w/ such emotion that I almost cried; I'd NEVER heard her sing like that [except on some of her demo songs], even on BNN. But on HAT, she did a HORRIBLE job on the song vocally.
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Well, in case you didn't notice, Vanessa does not have a song called Lolita Fairytale. However, she does have a song called Nolita Fairytale. Next time you criticize an artist, at least get the name of the single correct!
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I was a little thrilled when I saw this thread, b/c it was exactly what the doctor ordered, b/c it hits on the nail what I'm thinkin'.
For the most part, I'm VERY disappointed w/ this album; it's HORRIBLE. Just GOD awful. So bad, that in fact, I don't know where to begin. But I'll begin w/ Vannie's vocals, since I thought that was the biggest flaw of the album. And what I'm about to say is not out of malice at all, but out of concern for V's career and how her music [and material for her discography] has declined since BE NOT NOBODY. But lemme start w/ how her singing, b/c that was the MAIN flaw [and possibly WORSE one yet] that stood out for me on HAT.
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but w/ each album, it seems like Vannie's vocals become [not off-key per se], but more and more monotone. I honestly don't know what she's trying to prove by singing more out of tune w/ each album. The only song she actually SANG on that album was Lolita Fairytale..
and that;s where i stopped reading...
maybe try NOLITA Fairytale.
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Well, in case you didn't notice, Vanessa does not have a song called Lolita Fairytale. However, she does have a song called Nolita Fairytale. Next time you criticize an artist, at least get the name of the single correct!
Whatever. Like it matters. I actually spelled it like that on purpose. [Nola, Lola, Nolita, Lolita, get it?] I already know that it's spelled NOLITA FAIRYTALE. Get your facts straight.
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Well, in case you didn't notice, Vanessa does not have a song called Lolita Fairytale. However, she does have a song called Nolita Fairytale. Next time you criticize an artist, at least get the name of the single correct!
Whatever. Like it matters. I actually spelled it like that on purpose. [Nola, Lola, Nolita, Lolita, get it?] I already know that it's spelled NOLITA FAIRYTALE. Get your facts straight.
Im sure you spelt it like that on purpose...
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I'm not disappointed at all. I love the hip-hop twinge. Each of her albums is different. That's what being a creative, evolving artist is all about. 8)
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I'm not disappointed at all. I love the hip-hop twinge. Each of her albums is different. That's what being a creative, evolving artist is all about. 8)
I guess, but I hope V's next album isn't like this. But in the meantime I'll stick to listening to her previous releases. I hope she sings like she did on the live [low quality] version of 'The One' on the next one.
For those of you who made such a big f.u.s.s. out of the spelling of NF, I swear I did that on purpose; I'm a really good speller [people are always asking ME how to spell words]. There's only a few words I can't spell.
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i am glad somebody brought this up. The last time i mentioned it in her album thread people told me to eff off. Telling me to eff off does not mean it makes the album any better. I am definitely very disappointed with vanessa. Was incredibly impressed with BNN
less so with harmonium
and now there's this...... I don't think her songwriting skills will carry her anywhere at this point. She really will have to depend on her promo.
sorry I am sad about this too but the truth is this album is not good at all.
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in response to the post about a monotone voice.... i don't think you can really characterize music by monotone because that is what you would say to describe speech.
However, I know what you mean. This sort of "flat" timbre that comes out of Vanessa in Harmonium and truly in HAT is a result of very poorly written songs. The range is extremely limited AND the key is often too low to create any sort of vocal richness.
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Sounds like you got used to hearing the new songs as bare-bones productions, with just piano and vocals.
Yeah, I realized that was my problem when I first listened to the album. Your listening perception goes from listening to the piano and vocals and being used to it, then all this other months of work is piled on suddenly. It's not the only time you run into that kind of adjustment.
To people listening to it the for the first time it sounds great, trust me....or at least 3.5...somewhere between good and great. ;) It depends on what their ears are used to.
For instance, if you have always listened to heavy metal and have never been introduced to classical at all it might take most non-musicians time to get used and appreciate it for what it offers; hence, Music Appreciation 101 in colleges.
It's pretty much the same idea, no?
There is SO MUCH to be considered when making an album that I can't begin to go into it here.
Even without recording, just writing music, especially when you have several instruments involved, there's so much you have to keep track of. I can only imagine what it took to put together the song H&T. It's not pure genius, but I can imagine it was still a shitload of work.
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Its really scary when i hear people talk about the album in this way... makes me wonder if y'all are maybe used to Ron Fair's work on the previous two albums...
Maybe the fact that she has teamed up with Irv Gotti is making y'all just "feel" that this album is very "different" from her previous releases...
imo... if we wanna hear an acoustical(which imo too would be an amazing idea... yes even SS would be very very neat...)album... we should keep our fingers crossed and hope for maybe an unplugged album... or maybe as discused in other threads...an AOL sessions thingy...
I feel that this album is musically very very different from her previous two... and she has grown beautifully in the past 2 years... this album totally lacks the hauntingness that was very evident in her previous two albums... but that doesnt leave me disappointed... at all...
the extended intros and outros on songs like come undone and home are amazing... very interestingly different....
Whatevr she does... I love it.. even if I dont ,I grow to love it...Cos I'm a NESSAholic... and I can't help it... :P
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Harmonium is my favourite record of all time
I think this record has a serious shot at challenging that.
Its more upbeat. Its more complex. Its less gothic and experimental. But thats because shes refined what shes FUCKING AMAZING at here.
Excellent album. Truly.
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VanessaPiana....
NO ONE calls her Vannie, thats the worse nickname for her ever.
Secondly, try releasing an album as good as hers before you slate it.
thirdly, you have no right to critisize her so harshly when you havent even been here that long :roll:
oh...and no one cares if you're a good speller.
I love the album. Admititly its different from her last two but some of the songs are classics....Nolita fairytale, hands on me, come undone, fools like me, home, this time and more then this are amazing. The others are brilliant but in my opinion not as good.
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I think her new album rocks! At first I wasn't so happy about Hands On Me and Heroes And Theives, as I had got use to and loved the live versions but after a day I fell in love with the album just like Be Not Nobody and Harmonium.
Oh and I'm also the only person to write a review of the album on Amazon UK- just thought I'd mention it
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Not disappointed at all!!!!! This is her best album, definitely, every song is magic!
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VanessaPiana....
NO ONE calls her Vannie, thats the worse nickname for her ever.
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Look, everyone has a right to their opinion. You can't please everyone.
As an artist, with any release, some people will like your album if it sounds similar to the last, and some may loathe it for just that reason.
If your album goes off in some kind of weird or uncommercial direction, some people will love it for that reason or hate it for that reason.
Basically, all artists are screwed. You never, ever know what people will and won't respond to. I'm always amazed.
H&T may end up my least fave VC album. That doesn't mean I don't like it, but so far I prefer listening to the other two. Ultimately, I predict it will be a tie with BNN....just IMO. So what? It's a good album, I dig it, and I'm going to enjoy getting to know it better.
I'm a fan of VC, and she keeps developing as an artist. But, remember that no artist is above criticism.
Dan/NS
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H& T is good album and there is no denying it. I have to disagree with all of those who say her lyrics are childish (what?)or that her vocals are bad. I think the lyrics to some of these songs are truly AMAZING!!! Their so much raw emotion to them and you can tell V has pour her heart out in them. I do however, agree that it was a little over produced. I would have preferred for the focus to be on her vocals and the piano. I was heartbroken at the arrangements on Fools Like Me because I loved the raw emotion of it when it was just her and the piano live. So V if you are reading this PLEASE MAKE AN UNPLUGGED VERSION OF THE CD!!! But regardless of anything I still think it's a great album!
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I was a little thrilled when I saw this thread, b/c it was exactly what the doctor ordered, b/c it hits on the nail what I'm thinkin'.
blah blah this is too long and tiresome to quote the whole thing
V may think her album is da bomb-diggity and her best work yet, but I beg [w/ all due respect], b/c it's about as far from that as it can get. It's very sad that V is wasting her vocal talent by singing in a monotone voice, b/c she's MUCH MORE capable than this. [I think 'Home' is from her demo, but I'm not sure.] She has a clear, beautiful voice [not to mention that she kind of sounds like Jewel], but she totally did herself under by doing a hack job on HAT w/ her dull, flat, boring monotone vocals. Yeah, [like some fans] I'm disappointed that songs such as 'Best Behavior' and 'All Is Well' didn't make the cut, but at this point it doesn't really matter anyway, b/c HAT is such a crappy album. On 'The One' [the live version w/ the shitty quality] V sang the song like her life literally DEPENDED on singing it right. She sang the song w/ such emotion that I almost cried; I'd NEVER heard her sing like that [except on some of her demo songs], even on BNN. But on HAT, she did a HORRIBLE job on the song vocally.
What the fuck are you TALKING about?
First, it is absolutely not necessary to capitalize the name of every album you reference.
Secondly, please don't ever compare Vanessa Carlton and Avril Lavigne again.
Third, if you refer to her as "Vannie" again I will have to cyberslap you.
Fourth and most important, I don't understand why you continue to listen to Vanessa and be a "fan." Your posts are generally incredibly overly critical of Vanessa and her music, and from what I can tell, you've rarely liked a thing she's done since BNN. If her music and vocals are too simple for you (which you're constantly complaining about her lack of complexity), go find someone else to listen to.
I don't think her vocals are "monotone" at all. Have you listened to the last verse of Home? Or the last lines of Fools Like Me? "The trees grow so thick... granted one more wish" in More Than This?
Vanessa made a beautiful album that she's very proud of and while it is different than her others and obviously different from your preferred type of music, calling it GOD AWFUL and whatever the fuck else you said during your little tirade is just rude. But I thought it was cute you threw in the "all due respect" line, because I don't think there was any respect in your post at all. Ann-Marie and others offered their criticisms in a respectful manner, whereas you threw insults.
Now, since you're so unhappy, stop being a fan a go away finally.
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Disappointed? A little. Do I still like the CD? You bet.
When I first listened to all three of Vanessa's albums, I didn't have a very good first impression of all of them. I thought BNN was a little boring at first listen and I started to regret buying the album. After multiple listens, it became one of my favorite albums. When I first listened to Harmonium, I thought it was a little mellow and slow. After I listened to it more, it really grew on me and I consider it to be Vanessa's best album to date.
The same thing happened with H&T. I first listened to it when it was leaked and I initially loved it but I attributed that to me just being too damn excited to finally hear the new album rather than the album being good. I listened to it again after I bought it on Tuesday and I was left feeling a little underwhelmed. I know there's no need to panic because if history tells me something, this album will no doubt grow on me and I will eventually love it like I did with her two previous albums.
So, word of advice for those who are disappointed with this album: give it a few more listens and eventually, you'll start to like or even love this album as much as you loved her previous works.
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I was a little thrilled when I saw this thread, b/c it was exactly what the doctor ordered, b/c it hits on the nail what I'm thinkin'.
blah blah this is too long and tiresome to quote the whole thing
V may think her album is da bomb-diggity and her best work yet, but I beg [w/ all due respect], b/c it's about as far from that as it can get. It's very sad that V is wasting her vocal talent by singing in a monotone voice, b/c she's MUCH MORE capable than this. [I think 'Home' is from her demo, but I'm not sure.] She has a clear, beautiful voice [not to mention that she kind of sounds like Jewel], but she totally did herself under by doing a hack job on HAT w/ her dull, flat, boring monotone vocals. Yeah, [like some fans] I'm disappointed that songs such as 'Best Behavior' and 'All Is Well' didn't make the cut, but at this point it doesn't really matter anyway, b/c HAT is such a crappy album. On 'The One' [the live version w/ the shitty quality] V sang the song like her life literally DEPENDED on singing it right. She sang the song w/ such emotion that I almost cried; I'd NEVER heard her sing like that [except on some of her demo songs], even on BNN. But on HAT, she did a HORRIBLE job on the song vocally.
What the fuck are you TALKING about?
First, it is absolutely not necessary to capitalize the name of every album you reference.
Secondly, please don't ever compare Vanessa Carlton and Avril Lavigne again.
Third, if you refer to her as "Vannie" again I will have to cyberslap you.
Fourth and most important, I don't understand why you continue to listen to Vanessa and be a "fan." Your posts are generally incredibly overly critical of Vanessa and her music, and from what I can tell, you've rarely liked a thing she's done since BNN. If her music and vocals are too simple for you (which you're constantly complaining about her lack of complexity), go find someone else to listen to.
I don't think her vocals are "monotone" at all. Have you listened to the last verse of Home? Or the last lines of Fools Like Me? "The trees grow so thick... granted one more wish" in More Than This?
Vanessa made a beautiful album that she's very proud of and while it is different than her others and obviously different from your preferred type of music, calling it GOD AWFUL and whatever the fuck else you said during your little tirade is just rude. But I thought it was cute you threw in the "all due respect" line, because I don't think there was any respect in your post at all. Ann-Marie and others offered their criticisms in a respectful manner, whereas you threw insults.
Now, since you're so unhappy, stop being a fan a go away finally.
I do think to say its "God Awful" is a little harsh......... 8O
Her singing has actually improved quite a bit. I actually have had training in classical singing (Opera) and the way most of the old Vanessa songs are sung, is by singing from your throat, not your diaphragm. Its actually quite bad. I like the sound, but its not "Technicaly" very good. Vanessa is now singing correctly. I only noticed the out of tune-ness and monotone-ness in "The One" during the bridge. I assume this is because she is harmonizing. (which is difficult to do!)
And also she has to keep in time, so everything was slowed, including her voice. Her singing has changed, and it probably dosn't have as much character, but at least she has matured in the skill of it all.
And More than this, Vanessa's Vocal,s the producing and everything about this song is perfect. This song is my favourite and would blow anyone away. The ideas are awesome (including the lyrics of the last half)
And I agree! Avril Lavgine is ICKY ICKY ICKY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ewwwww.
that is very insulting to poor Nessa! :cry:
Now now, so evryone calm down. Don't worry after a few listens it will grow on anyone who thinks they don't like it. :)
Katherine Ann Marie xox
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i have been a vc fan for a very long time...be not nobody was one of the first albums i ever owned.
i saw her live at the roxy earlier this year and i don't know when i was more excited for an album.
i must say i am thoroughly disappointed in heroes & thieves.
vanessa's performance at the roxy was epic...just her and her piano, and you could really feel the emotion and the beauty of the songs.
this album is totally pop synthesized.
i had an amazing live performance of hands on me that i loved, but on the album i feel like shes playing with a metronome. one of the most brilliant things about her work was her ability to switch tempo.
fools like me has by far the best lyrics of any song...especially the last 3 lines which i am obsessed with. but the instrumentals are completely overwhelming and take over the rest of the song.
i just don't understand why sooo many songs fail to have the piano as the lead instrument...i do not like vanessa because of her voice..i like her songwriting/pianoplaying/singing combo.
i just feel completely blindsighted...what artist does entirely acoustic live performances when their album is pop?
its frusterating that this album had 5 star potential and its only like a 3, MAYBE a 3.5
i felt the same way upon the first listen..... i've been listening more and more and just trying to accept it for what it is and its growing on me...
atleast we'll still have the live performances :) which wont be over produced..
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I was a little thrilled when I saw this thread, b/c it was exactly what the doctor ordered, b/c it hits on the nail what I'm thinkin'.
blah blah this is too long and tiresome to quote the whole thing
V may think her album is da bomb-diggity and her best work yet, but I beg [w/ all due respect], b/c it's about as far from that as it can get. It's very sad that V is wasting her vocal talent by singing in a monotone voice, b/c she's MUCH MORE capable than this. [I think 'Home' is from her demo, but I'm not sure.] She has a clear, beautiful voice [not to mention that she kind of sounds like Jewel], but she totally did herself under by doing a hack job on HAT w/ her dull, flat, boring monotone vocals. Yeah, [like some fans] I'm disappointed that songs such as 'Best Behavior' and 'All Is Well' didn't make the cut, but at this point it doesn't really matter anyway, b/c HAT is such a crappy album. On 'The One' [the live version w/ the shitty quality] V sang the song like her life literally DEPENDED on singing it right. She sang the song w/ such emotion that I almost cried; I'd NEVER heard her sing like that [except on some of her demo songs], even on BNN. But on HAT, she did a HORRIBLE job on the song vocally.
What the fuck are you TALKING about?
First, it is absolutely not necessary to capitalize the name of every album you reference.
Secondly, please don't ever compare Vanessa Carlton and Avril Lavigne again.
Third, if you refer to her as "Vannie" again I will have to cyberslap you.
Fourth and most important, I don't understand why you continue to listen to Vanessa and be a "fan." Your posts are generally incredibly overly critical of Vanessa and her music, and from what I can tell, you've rarely liked a thing she's done since BNN. If her music and vocals are too simple for you (which you're constantly complaining about her lack of complexity), go find someone else to listen to.
I don't think her vocals are "monotone" at all. Have you listened to the last verse of Home? Or the last lines of Fools Like Me? "The trees grow so thick... granted one more wish" in More Than This?
Vanessa made a beautiful album that she's very proud of and while it is different than her others and obviously different from your preferred type of music, calling it GOD AWFUL and whatever the fuck else you said during your little tirade is just rude. But I thought it was cute you threw in the "all due respect" line, because I don't think there was any respect in your post at all. Ann-Marie and others offered their criticisms in a respectful manner, whereas you threw insults.
Now, since you're so unhappy, stop being a fan a go away finally.
Amen!
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Yes, she sings differently on certain songs.....the way one would sing when one is sad.. :cry:
Initially I didn't like the way she sings "This Time". It's a little slow, therefore her phrasing & tone is slower. But it's a sad, reflective song right? I think, if you feel the same emotion that each song portrays, you will find it suits perfectly. So when I'm a girl in a panic and feel sadness in my veins again, I'm sure I will cry to this song, and love it more.
I was very surprised hearing Spring Street for the first time, but I love her style of singing here. Kinda reminds me of old Fleetwood Mac...dunno why. :?
Anyway....I know how it is to write a song and really feel the emotion of it when it is new, then hearing it when not feeling the same way, it sounds different. A lot of my own songs don't affect me the same way any more. (other artist example: Frou Frou's "Hear Me Out" -- go have a listen. It's magical. I cried to that sooo much this spring, but now listening to it I feel strangely blank.)
So if you don't like Vanessa's songs, singing, or production, maybe you're just not feeling her. :)
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VanessaPiana....
NO ONE calls her Vannie, thats the worse nickname for her ever.
Secondly, try releasing an album as good as hers before you slate it.
thirdly, you have no right to critisize her so harshly when you havent even been here that long :roll:
oh...and no one cares if you're a good speller.
I love the album. Admititly its different from her last two but some of the songs are classics....Nolita fairytale, hands on me, come undone, fools like me, home, this time and more then this are amazing. The others are brilliant but in my opinion not as good.
First of all, I can call her whatever I want. I know Vannie's a little corny, but y'all say corny-ass sh!t all the time. Secondly, I've been here for quite a while [since 4/05, which is been 2 1/2 years], so again, get your facts straight. I just don't come here as often as I used to b/c for every person I get along w/ I encounter 3x as many douche-bags [like you] who put people down whose opinions are different from theirs. I honestly don't know what the big deal about Van is; the only thing I've liked about her since I've become a fan is her music, bar none. If someone says something bad about her or her music, so what? It's not the end of the world. I'm entitled to my opinions and have a right not to be bothered b/c they're different from the other fans' up here.
I don't have time to spin my wheels and waste my time arguing w/ anyone b/c when it's all said and done people are pigheaded, implacable and won't change no matter what. I have too much to do and life's short, so I don't have time for that kind of foolishness. I feel the way I feel about HAT [the singing/songwriting's pretty bad, by the way, so I'm very disappointed] and mud-flinging and name-calling won't make me budge. Although I don't always agree with others, at least I have enough class to take their opinions into account and have a civil discussion. Fussing people out for disagreein' will only drive them away... or make the debate get ugly. But I won't take your opinions seriously if I'm being gravely insulted and attacked at the same time. For the record, take that around the bend, put it in your pipe and smoke it if you want to.
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VanessaPiana....
NO ONE calls her Vannie, thats the worse nickname for her ever.
Secondly, try releasing an album as good as hers before you slate it.
thirdly, you have no right to critisize her so harshly when you havent even been here that long :roll:
oh...and no one cares if you're a good speller.
I love the album. Admititly its different from her last two but some of the songs are classics....Nolita fairytale, hands on me, come undone, fools like me, home, this time and more then this are amazing. The others are brilliant but in my opinion not as good.
First of all, I can call her whatever I want. I know Vannie's a little corny, but y'all say corny-ass sh!t all the time. Secondly, I've been here for quite a while [since 4/05, which is been 2 1/2 years], so again, get your facts straight. I just don't come here as often as I used to b/c for every person I get along w/ I encounter 3x as many douche-bags [like you] who put people down whose opinions are different from theirs. I honestly don't know what the big deal about Van is; the only thing I've liked about her since I've become a fan is her music, bar none. If someone says something bad about her or her music, so what? It's not the end of the world. I'm entitled to my opinions and have a right not to be bothered b/c they're different from the other fans' up here.
I don't have time to spin my wheels and waste my time arguing w/ anyone b/c when it's all said and done people are pigheaded, implacable and won't change no matter what. I have too much to do and life's short, so I don't have time for that kind of foolishness. I feel the way I feel about HAT [the singing/songwriting's pretty bad, by the way, so I'm very disappointed] and mud-flinging and name-calling won't make me budge. Although I don't always agree with others, at least I have enough class to take their opinions into account and have a civil discussion. Fussing people out for disagreein' will only drive them away... or make the debate get ugly. But I won't take your opinions seriously if I'm being gravely insulted and attacked at the same time. For the record, take that around the bend, put it in your pipe and smoke it if you want to.
well if it helps anything I like the nickname vanie =]
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And I think it's a little annoying to use a person's number of posts and/or join date as a mark to how good of a poster they are. I realize every message board is a bit rude to the newbies at first, but it still irritates me.
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VanessaPiana....
NO ONE calls her Vannie, thats the worse nickname for her ever.
Secondly, try releasing an album as good as hers before you slate it.
thirdly, you have no right to critisize her so harshly when you havent even been here that long :roll:
oh...and no one cares if you're a good speller.
I love the album. Admititly its different from her last two but some of the songs are classics....Nolita fairytale, hands on me, come undone, fools like me, home, this time and more then this are amazing. The others are brilliant but in my opinion not as good.
First of all, I can call her whatever I want. I know Vannie's a little corny, but y'all say corny-ass sh!t all the time. Secondly, I've been here for quite a while [since 4/05, which is been 2 1/2 years], so again, get your facts straight. I just don't come here as often as I used to b/c for every person I get along w/ I encounter 3x as many douche-bags [like you] who put people down whose opinions are different from theirs. I honestly don't know what the big deal about Van is; the only thing I've liked about her since I've become a fan is her music, bar none. If someone says something bad about her or her music, so what? It's not the end of the world. I'm entitled to my opinions and have a right not to be bothered b/c they're different from the other fans' up here.
I don't have time to spin my wheels and waste my time arguing w/ anyone b/c when it's all said and done people are pigheaded, implacable and won't change no matter what. I have too much to do and life's short, so I don't have time for that kind of foolishness. I feel the way I feel about HAT [the singing/songwriting's pretty bad, by the way, so I'm very disappointed] and mud-flinging and name-calling won't make me budge. Although I don't always agree with others, at least I have enough class to take their opinions into account and have a civil discussion. Fussing people out for disagreein' will only drive them away... or make the debate get ugly. But I won't take your opinions seriously if I'm being gravely insulted and attacked at the same time. For the record, take that around the bend, put it in your pipe and smoke it if you want to.
wow, someones defensive :lol:
I dont really give a shit how long you have been here- all I know is I havent seen you around at all.
secondly, try writing proper words :) it would really help.
and also, I dont care if you dont like it...but saying its god awful on a NESSAHOLICS site? you know- a site where we LIKE her?? unless your extremely stupid you should have known that was gonna cause some uproar?
I have nothing else to say on the matter..except if you dislike it so strongly then just dont talk about it here, because Im pretty sure Vanessa reads this and shes worked damn hard on it just to have a so-called fan called it 'god awful'
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I'm pretty sure the rest of you like her new album, I just don't, and cussing me out ain't gonna change my mind. I just don't like the singin' and the piano playing, mainly b/c it's different, but I just think it's pretty bad. It's not the kind of singing as I know singing. Maybe I'll like it in the future, maybe it'll grow on me, maybe it won't. But for now I'm stickin' to my guns and my story remains the same. If you don't like it... well, hell, there ain't nothin' I can do. If I don't like someone's music, I can always listen somebody else I think is better; I do it all the time; it's just that simple. Get over it and get a life. Some of you may think I'm mean, but if you want a bitch, you'll get one.
Gosh, you people defend Van like you know her personally or something... she's not the only talented singer/songwriter in the pond, you know. I'm pretty sure Van has worked her tush off on this album and that's wonderful, but sincerity ain't everything, you know. [You can be as sincere as you want to be and still be wrong or make a big mistake.] I've noticed that Alicia Keys [who I'm a big fan of] singing style has changed, too, although her latest hit song has yet to knock my socks off; I'll have to wait 'til her next album comes out. For those of you who have a problem w/ my grammer... get used to it. I can use proper grammer if I wanted, but choose not to. This ain't a job interview or IBM or something.
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I'm pretty sure the rest of you like her new album, I just don't, and cussing me out ain't gonna change my mind. I just don't like the singin' and the piano playing, mainly b/c it's different, but I just think it's pretty bad. It's not the kind of singing as I know singing. Maybe I'll like it in the future, maybe it'll grow on me, maybe it won't. But for now I'm stickin' to my guns and my story remains the same. If you don't like it... well, hell, there ain't nothin' I can do. If I don't like someone's music, I can always listen somebody else I think is better; I do it all the time; it's just that simple. Get over it and get a life. Some of you may think I'm mean, but if you want a bitch, you'll get one.
Gosh, you people defend Van like you know her personally or something... she's not the only talented singer/songwriter in the pond, you know. I'm pretty sure Van has worked her tush off on this album and that's wonderful, but sincerity ain't everything, you know. [You can be as sincere as you want to be and still be wrong or make a big mistake.] I've noticed that Alicia Keys [who I'm a big fan of] singing style has changed, too, although her latest hit song has yet to knock my socks off; I'll have to wait 'til her next album comes out. For those of you who have a problem w/ my grammer... get used to it. I can use proper grammer if I wanted, but choose not to. This ain't a job interview or IBM or something.
OMG. PLEASE.....stop talking.......you seem like a rambler and NOBODY CARES.....UGHHHHH.
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everyone has a right to state thier own opinion....
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everyone has a right to state thier own opinion....
true even though it's really annoying and hard not to argue with... lol
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well everyone is saying i just don't like the fact that its different then BNNB and harmonium but thast not the case.
this is pop. there is no other genre description for it other then that. except its just not catchy enough to even be GOOD pop.
im not saying i don't love it. i do. i love vc, ill love anything she does.
its just epically disappointing when something has 5 star potential and it just doesn't happen.
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Actually, I am disappointed, but if other people like it, that's great. I'm not going to try and change their mind... also, good on the people who are willing to admit that they don't like it and give their opinion... it's gutsy because on these boards, I've noticed that if you do, then pepole have a go at you. If you like the album, then no-one else's personal opinion should matter all that much to you, because YOU enjoy it ... so why get angry at someone who doesn't enjoy it? If you feel you must tell them that you disagree and why, then fair enough, but why argue and attack, rather than discuss? I don't get it.
Personally, I don't like the album because it's missing what Vanessa called the "goth" element that was woven into the demos, BNN, Harmonium (especially so), and other B-sides and live tracks. That's what I truly love about Vanessa's music. If that's not what makes you a fan of Vanessa than you may find nothing to complain about with H&T... but that's what attracted me to her music in the first place. I was never a fan of ATM, but when I borrowed BNN from a friend I loved Wanted, Twilight, Paint it Black, Sway, etc. and became a fan that way. That side of Vanessa seems to be absent in H&T.
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thats actually a really good description of whats missing...i hadn't identified it exactly until you said it lol. goth element. i like it.
plus ive noticed that if you present your review in a respectful way (even if its negative) in a respectful way then people don't bash you. its only when you come on the board and say H&T SUCKS!! that people are like, wtf.
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I love H&T but I miss the darker element in her music as well. I wouldn't really call it "goth", that's a misnomer, "dark" would be more apt to describe it.
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I agree that Vanessa does the dark thing well and it's definitely missing from this record, but I asked in another thread and nobody replied... Maybe she's just happy? The darkest song in consideration for H&T was All Is Well and it got left out. Maybe she's not having those feelings right now.
I'm happy she's happy and wouldn't ask her to suffer so I can have darker songs. I write my darkest when I'm very unhappy and I wouldn't want that for anybody. So if V being happy means no dark songs, so be it.
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thats actually a really good description of whats missing...i hadn't identified it exactly until you said it lol. goth element. i like it.
plus ive noticed that if you present your review in a respectful way (even if its negative) in a respectful way then people don't bash you. its only when you come on the board and say H&T SUCKS!! that people are like, wtf.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I agree that Vanessa does the dark thing well and it's definitely missing from this record, but I asked in another thread and nobody replied... Maybe she's just happy? The darkest song in consideration for H&T was All Is Well and it got left out. Maybe she's not having those feelings right now.
I'm happy she's happy and wouldn't ask her to suffer so I can have darker songs. I write my darkest when I'm very unhappy and I wouldn't want that for anybody. So if V being happy means no dark songs, so be it.
Haha, that's true. What thread was your comment in? I haven't read it. Anyway, I get what you mean, I write dark songs too. I don't wish her to be unhappy as a person... I just prefer (usually, but not exclusively) to listen to darker music. I am disappointed with this album for that reason (although FLM does have some cool 'sad' lyrics), but it's not such a big deal, I can just listen to her older songs or other artists that I enjoy... she's not the only artist I like. :)
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Oh, I know you weren't suggesting she be unhappy. I was just saying.
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Oh, I know you weren't suggesting she be unhappy. I was just saying.
Yeah, I know what you meant. :)
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i dont know what to say about vanessa, i'm not really into her music..
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then why are you here?
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because i like talking to some of the people here...
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i have been a vc fan for a very long time...be not nobody was one of the first albums i ever owned.
i saw her live at the roxy earlier this year and i don't know when i was more excited for an album.
i must say i am thoroughly disappointed in heroes & thieves.
vanessa's performance at the roxy was epic...just her and her piano, and you could really feel the emotion and the beauty of the songs.
this album is totally pop synthesized.
i had an amazing live performance of hands on me that i loved, but on the album i feel like shes playing with a metronome. one of the mostbrilliant things about her work was her ability to switch tempo.
fools like me has by far the best lyrics of any song...especially the last 3 lines which i am obsessed with. but the instrumentals are completely overwhelming and take over the rest of the song.
i just don't understand why sooo many songs fail to have the piano as the lead instrument...i do not like vanessa because of her voice..i like her songwriting/pianoplaying/singing combo.
i just feel completely blindsighted...what artist does entirely acoustic live performances when their album is pop?
its frusterating that this album had 5 star potential and its only like a 3, MAYBE a 3.5
Since I'm a fan of her previous works, I'll give the album 3 stars. But H&T is just whack w/ a capital W, and I never thought I would say that. The only good song really is NF; I thought that was the precursor, the main theme of the rest of H&T; boy did I get played -- BIG time. I honestly don't know what V was aiming for the third round. I guess I'll ask her if I have the chance to meet her. I just hope it's different w/ the next record. *ignores immature critsism* When Van performs live, sometimes her vocals are off-key [probably b/c she's sick, tired or her voice is worn from so much singing], but other times she sounds really good, sometimes better than she does on the record [especially in her performances on Sessions@AOL and Rolling Stone Original and other live performances I don't have time to name].
On a lot of the album reviews for BNN [I haven't yet seen the ones for HARMONIUM], some say that the main problem w/ the album was that all of the songs pretty much sounded the same w/ Ron Fair running things and adding an orchestra and all. That's true, but I had absolutely no qualms about that b/c the material was pretty good [and entertaining to listen to and sing along w/ as well]. I also loved that the piano wasn't tweaked, her YAMAHA therefore maintaining its naturally beautiful, pristine sound [except on Wanted w/ the solo piano b/c the song had to have that 'studio' sound quality suitable for the album]. V's pretty voice was also easy on the ears, too [she sang her ass off in Wanted and Paint It Black].
For those of you who want to argue and be militant and hostile about my criticism of the H&T, I'm 'a just be the bigger person and ignore your idiotic comments. I don't like her latest album, no means no, like it, lump, back up and bump it, or whatever you wanna do. Y'all can kiss my curvy black ass -- and then go straight to hell, 'cuz I don't know you, and you don't know absolutely nothin' about me, either, just to be making such silly, childish, petty comments. I've tried to be nice and civilized, but it's obviously not working -- at all. I give up b/c people are impossible to please, anyway. It didn't work back in 2005, and it's definitely not working now. Some of you obviously have too much time on your hands, lest you wouldn't spend it retaliating by hurling nasty remarks at me and whining [like BIG, spoiled babies] about the fact that my opinions about Van's latest album are different from yours [among other things]. C'mon, chill da hell out; y'all are seriously making a mountain out of a mole hill. It's not that serious, you feel me?
Van is in this crazy thing called the music industry and I'm pretty sure she can accept the fact that not everybody's gonna love her and her music. Why don't y'all feel the same way? [Looks to me like Van is more secure in her talent and comfortable w/ herself than even her most devoted fans are, ironically]. She's a grown-ass woman who I'm pretty sure can handle her own bid'ness and not lose any sleep when someone hurts her feelings. People gonna do that to you for as long as you live, so you might as well get used to if, or else be miserable for the rest of your life [or even suicidal]. If people don't like the artists I listen too, then it's fine by me; their tastes are just different, that's all... or sometimes they just don't know what they're missin'. Ain't nothin' I can do but go on about my business. As long as you don't put your hands on me, you can say whatever you want. It ain't gonna bother me none. I don't even know why I'm explainin' myself to some of you, b/c it obviously ain't doin' no good. Some of you have been smokin' so much Mary Jane that it's blowed out your minds, and I can't reason w/ people who have baked brains. Either that, or some people can't stand the truth, 'cuz the truth hurts bad... if you're not one of those mature people who can stomach it. For that reason, it's impossible to have a reasonable, mature, civilized, poised discussion.
Ever heard the saying, 'I'm rubber, you're glue, and whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you?' ['Nuff said.] But in the meantime I'll get a good night's sleep b/c if I spend it quarreling w/ people who can't take anything deep I'll get sidetracked. The only thing I can do is pray for you. What goes around comes around. You reap what you sow. The very same way you're treating me, whether it's for bad or worse, someone's gonna revisit it back on you. That's all I have to say. I wish you the best, and God bless.
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vanessa, you shouldnt have to explain yourself, its your opinion and people should accept that
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yeah i feel the same way..nolita fairytale had me really excited for the album...i like it when the single is like the third or fourth best song on the album..like a precursor to greatness. this was just getting my hopes up and being disappointed.
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yeah i feel the same way..nolita fairytale had me really excited for the album...i like it when the single is like the third or fourth best song on the album..like a precursor to greatness. this was just getting my hopes up and being disappointed.
For me Nolita Fairytale is a great song but it isn't even close to being the best off of Heroes & Thieves...I really do love this album and every song is memorable to me. Maybe you'll like her next album better?!?
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I meant to quote Alison, but I accidently added her to my 'Ignore List' [sorry, alison; it was a freak accident].
Although NF has the sound of V's previous albums [especially HARMONIUM], the lyrics are more autobiographical. V was obviously aiming for something different for this album [by taking her music (as well as her soft-but powerful voice) in a different direction], and it didn't strike the right chords w/ some, including myself. But I'm afraid that she's sold herself short this time around. Most likely b/f signing under her new label the CEO and executives gave her 'conditions' she must follow under the contract b/f they gave her the deal. I guess this explains this new sound that rubs me in all the wrong places. I'm pretty sure some of you know good and well how cutthroat [not to mention competitive] the music industry is, especially in this day and time.
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I just received my album today so I don't to be impulsive, but I admit I was disappointed with the album. I was expecting more of Vanessa's classical music similar to the style of Harmonium and less poppy alternative sounds like the actual Heroes & Thieves. Not to say I don't like the songs, I just prefer the more classical folk Vanessa music more than alternative style Vanessa music. It just sounds too studio-synced which took away the brilliance, authentic-ness, originality of Vanessa's music. I guess listening to this album made me realize how much I enjoy listening to folk/classical type of music by Vanessa. I really hope that her next album is less alternative and poppy. I LOVE Vanessa's style. I hope she preserves it, saves it for the next album.
AND I was disappointed with "Hands On Me." Why did they have to make one of my favorite songs on the album so alternative. RUINED it for me. I thought all her live performances of hands on me were amazing, heart-felt, personal, just the way I imagined her studio version to be. But NO it just isn't the same. I really wanted a nice clear, quality version of Hands On Me with the traditional piano and V's voice, and perhaps violin in the background. ARGH.
Not to say I don't like Spring Street or Come Undone but I would take those out any day for All is Well and Best Behavior--top 4 songs on the album. I guess the album wouldn't be a story--themed based album anymore, but I just wished that they could include them as bonus tracks. It's not fair to make the fans buy the extra tracks later on, on iTunes. I really hope the general public will have exposure to these songs, if they ever come out.
I'd love to invest more on Vanessa, but I believe the bonus tracks should have been included into the CDs that'll sell--exposure for the songs. Let's hope it'll still happen.
As you can tell, I'm really passionate about this. It's only because I love Vanessa's music. I just wished that this album could be more classical. I'll just have to keep listening, and keep trying to find my way to some sort of peace with the way it came out.
But I absolutely love the ballads: Home (turned out well just like live performances) and Heroes & Thieves.
And about The One, it's not as bad as everyone says about stevie nicks sounding like a...i don't wanna say it. I think Vanessa's voice only would have been the best decision for the good of the song, but stevie nicks is such a big inspiration to her--as a mentor, as a friend, as her idol. I think it's great how excited vanessa is about her being on the track. I can accept stevie nicks..." " up the song if Vanessa can live with it. haha.
I AM looking forward to attending Vanessa's haunted club concert in the near future!!!!
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I was expecting more of Vanessa's classical music similar to the style of Harmonium and less poppy alternative sounds like the actual Heroes & Thieves.
honestly i think heroes and thieves stands alone in terms of style; it's the only song on the record that reminds me of BNN.
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I was expecting more of Vanessa's classical music similar to the style of Harmonium and less poppy alternative sounds like the actual Heroes & Thieves.
honestly i think heroes and thieves stands alone in terms of style; it's the only song on the record that reminds me of BNN.
probably because the arrangement sounds a LOT like Ordinary Day? hehe.
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maybe. i never paid that much attention and i haven't listened to BNN in like a year.
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you know what I've realized, perhaps her producers before from harmonium would have done a better job. I feel like a lot of songs were butchered because of poor producing. Some of the vocal arrangements were too slow. I expected fools like me to be a tad bit faster and not as rigid. I expected the one to be faster, and the music in the background felt wrong. LIke the background was off key and vanessa was singing perfectly. The violin in the background didn't fit the song. There weren't enough orchestra music for some songs unlike harmonium. I thought each song in Harmonium had brilliant and perfect amounts of orchestra music. A lot of songs didn't sound right. When the song should climax, it doesn't feel climaxed. The arrangements are all over the place. I really hope the next cd doesn't get screwed up like this one. This is my personal opinion, i hope I didn't offend anyone. Unfortunately I wish she could redo this cd. It feels wrong. I really didn't like More Than This's choir part, so corny. I'm sorry Vanessa, if you're reading this. but that's just how I feel.
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I'm not disappointed in the album as much as I'm aware she needs to start up her career again and I think this is the right direction. She has the right people behind her for that. It's not a bad album; in fact it is a great album. I believe it is a true depiction and honest album.
I remember my mother listening to stevie nicks' music and could totally feel the vibe, but there is a reason why I'm not a big fan of stevie nicks and am a big vanessa carlton fan. I love the cryptic almost incoherent ramblings of a girl pouring her heart out, over an unique musical expression many have described to have a touch of genius; a style so many other artists seem to be following these days. I agree with the statements stevie and irv have made about her. I honestly believe vanessa is a creative genius who could be one of the great singer songwriters of her generation. I'm not trying to put her on a pedestal but rather just restating what has already been said, in my own words.
As much as you might feel something is missing in the album, the very definition of creativity means you are always going to try to come up with something new. Every album is going to be different with pros and cons. It is definantly not missing a sense of creativity, and if it appeals to the larger mass of people by being overly this or overly that all the better.
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As you can tell, I'm really passionate about this. It's only because I love Vanessa's music. I just wished that this album could be more classical. I'll just have to keep listening, and keep trying to find my way to some sort of peace with the way it came out.
boo hoo..... :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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I like the album personally. There are a few songs on it that I don't think are great and could have used better/more subtle production (The One and Fools Like Me come to mind first), but in all I think it's a good variety. It's not too dissimilar from her other music in my opinion. She's always had a pop feel, and yeah, some of the songs on this album reflect that - I think in a good way usually. I really like how Hands On Me turned out. I didn't even like the live versions I'd heard that much because it sounded like a pop song lyrically and tonally, but she played it almost like a ballad which I never thought fit. I much prefer the lyrics "I first saw you at the video exchange" in a pop song to a piano ballad- in a piano ballad they just sound cheesy (to me).
However, I think Fools Like Me would have made an awesome, intense ballad. I don't dislike the album version, but I think it could have been a lot better slowed down with less of a pop feel. Live it's sort of a stormy and angsty song - reminds me of Swindler a little - but I guess she more wanted to reflect the positive side of the song over the negative. Oh well.
Anyway, I don't think it's selling out or anything to try a different sound for one album. Musicians do different concept albums all the time and if V continues this album might just ehance her repertoire. Idk, that's just what I think!
But Spring Street makes up for the whole album elsewhere in my opinion, I love that song. One of my favorites from her yet so far.
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I don't know if this makes me a bad fan, but since I bought the CD I haven't really listened to it. I bought Rilo Kiley's Under the Blacklight and loved it so much a few days later I bought More Adventurous and have not listened to H&T at all. 8O
I've probably listened to it less than five times and not even the whole cd.
Shame on me.
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There is a difference in change and originality.
Make the change, but keep the originality.
Still like the album though :D
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Actually, I am disappointed, but if other people like it, that's great. I'm not going to try and change their mind... also, good on the people who are willing to admit that they don't like it and give their opinion... it's gutsy because on these boards, I've noticed that if you do, then pepole have a go at you. If you like the album, then no-one else's personal opinion should matter all that much to you, because YOU enjoy it ... so why get angry at someone who doesn't enjoy it? If you feel you must tell them that you disagree and why, then fair enough, but why argue and attack, rather than discuss? I don't get it.
Personally, I don't like the album because it's missing what Vanessa called the "goth" element that was woven into the demos, BNN, Harmonium (especially so), and other B-sides and live tracks. That's what I truly love about Vanessa's music. If that's not what makes you a fan of Vanessa than you may find nothing to complain about with H&T... but that's what attracted me to her music in the first place. I was never a fan of ATM, but when I borrowed BNN from a friend I loved Wanted, Twilight, Paint it Black, Sway, etc. and became a fan that way. That side of Vanessa seems to be absent in H&T.
You have to remember though, she wrote her first CD when she was just a teenager in a hardcore ballet school. She was at a really low place in her life and had to release it somehow. She was only a child.
Vanessa is approaching 30 now; her inspiration is coming from new experiences and emotions that comes with things we go through as we get older. Her lyrics are maturing because she has too, and we're lucky enough to have her sharing that with us. :)
She couldn't keep that gothy kind of style forever, it'd be weird if she was still singing when she was 40 about those kind of things. :lol:
ps) i'm not calling her old or anything...i'm just trying to get the point across that she's matured :-)
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i have been a vc fan for a very long time...be not nobody was one of the first albums i ever owned.
i saw her live at the roxy earlier this year and i don't know when i was more excited for an album.
i must say i am thoroughly disappointed in heroes & thieves.
vanessa's performance at the roxy was epic...just her and her piano, and you could really feel the emotion and the beauty of the songs.
this album is totally pop synthesized.
i had an amazing live performance of hands on me that i loved, but on the album i feel like shes playing with a metronome. one of the mostbrilliant things about her work was her ability to switch tempo.
fools like me has by far the best lyrics of any song...especially the last 3 lines which i am obsessed with. but the instrumentals are completely overwhelming and take over the rest of the song.
i just don't understand why sooo many songs fail to have the piano as the lead instrument...i do not like vanessa because of her voice..i like her songwriting/pianoplaying/singing combo.
i just feel completely blindsighted...what artist does entirely acoustic live performances when their album is pop?
its frusterating that this album had 5 star potential and its only like a 3, MAYBE a 3.5
Since I'm a fan of her previous works, I'll give the album 3 stars. But H&T is just whack w/ a capital W, and I never thought I would say that. The only good song really is NF; I thought that was the precursor, the main theme of the rest of H&T; boy did I get played -- BIG time. I honestly don't know what V was aiming for the third round. I guess I'll ask her if I have the chance to meet her. I just hope it's different w/ the next record. *ignores immature critsism* When Van performs live, sometimes her vocals are off-key [probably b/c she's sick, tired or her voice is worn from so much singing], but other times she sounds really good, sometimes better than she does on the record [especially in her performances on Sessions@AOL and Rolling Stone Original and other live performances I don't have time to name].
On a lot of the album reviews for BNN [I haven't yet seen the ones for HARMONIUM], some say that the main problem w/ the album was that all of the songs pretty much sounded the same w/ Ron Fair running things and adding an orchestra and all. That's true, but I had absolutely no qualms about that b/c the material was pretty good [and entertaining to listen to and sing along w/ as well]. I also loved that the piano wasn't tweaked, her YAMAHA therefore maintaining its naturally beautiful, pristine sound [except on Wanted w/ the solo piano b/c the song had to have that 'studio' sound quality suitable for the album]. V's pretty voice was also easy on the ears, too [she sang her ass off in Wanted and Paint It Black].
For those of you who want to argue and be militant and hostile about my criticism of the H&T, I'm 'a just be the bigger person and ignore your idiotic comments. I don't like her latest album, no means no, like it, lump, back up and bump it, or whatever you wanna do. Y'all can kiss my curvy black ass -- and then go straight to hell, 'cuz I don't know you, and you don't know absolutely nothin' about me, either, just to be making such silly, childish, petty comments. I've tried to be nice and civilized, but it's obviously not working -- at all. I give up b/c people are impossible to please, anyway. It didn't work back in 2005, and it's definitely not working now. Some of you obviously have too much time on your hands, lest you wouldn't spend it retaliating by hurling nasty remarks at me and whining [like BIG, spoiled babies] about the fact that my opinions about Van's latest album are different from yours [among other things]. C'mon, chill da hell out; y'all are seriously making a mountain out of a mole hill. It's not that serious, you feel me?
Van is in this crazy thing called the music industry and I'm pretty sure she can accept the fact that not everybody's gonna love her and her music. Why don't y'all feel the same way? [Looks to me like Van is more secure in her talent and comfortable w/ herself than even her most devoted fans are, ironically]. She's a grown-ass woman who I'm pretty sure can handle her own bid'ness and not lose any sleep when someone hurts her feelings. People gonna do that to you for as long as you live, so you might as well get used to if, or else be miserable for the rest of your life [or even suicidal]. If people don't like the artists I listen too, then it's fine by me; their tastes are just different, that's all... or sometimes they just don't know what they're missin'. Ain't nothin' I can do but go on about my business. As long as you don't put your hands on me, you can say whatever you want. It ain't gonna bother me none. I don't even know why I'm explainin' myself to some of you, b/c it obviously ain't doin' no good. Some of you have been smokin' so much Mary Jane that it's blowed out your minds, and I can't reason w/ people who have baked brains. Either that, or some people can't stand the truth, 'cuz the truth hurts bad... if you're not one of those mature people who can stomach it. For that reason, it's impossible to have a reasonable, mature, civilized, poised discussion.
Ever heard the saying, 'I'm rubber, you're glue, and whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you?' ['Nuff said.] But in the meantime I'll get a good night's sleep b/c if I spend it quarreling w/ people who can't take anything deep I'll get sidetracked. The only thing I can do is pray for you. What goes around comes around. You reap what you sow. The very same way you're treating me, whether it's for bad or worse, someone's gonna revisit it back on you. That's all I have to say. I wish you the best, and God bless.
WHOA...i'm not reading all that 8O
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I just typed a really long reply but I got logged out :cry: It saves you guys having to read my drivel I suppose :) .
Shorter Version:
I was dissapointed at first but now that I've given certain songs a chance, I love H&T, it's easily as good as her first two albums.
A couple of the intros make the songs dificult to get into- for Come Undone the intro isn't badly suited it's just bad.
I diasgree with people saying the album is overproduced, every song is artfully crafted, there's a lot going on sometimes but every instrument/sound compliments every other.
My favourite song (of the album and of Nessa's) is Hands on Me, the live version is good but the album version is amazing, serious it gave me shivers. I was really suprised that others were not so keen it, I think it's perfect.
Other album highlights for me are: Fools Like Me, it's just so easy to listen to, the piano part at the end of Home (there aren't even words to describe it), the intro (first 5-10 seconds) to The One is really cool and Spring Street, not the best sounding song on the album, but the lyrics are very real (applies to the whole album really) and I think everyone can relate to them at least in part.
It's understandable that Vanessa is so pleased with H&T, it's practically flawless, easilly as good as Harmonium and BNN.
I can get why some are disappointed with it though, I don't think not liking an album disqualifies them as fans and if they've at least listened to the album they have as much right to criticise it as we have to praise it.
The best thing about Vanessa is that's she changing her style (same as she did with Harmonium) and writing what she feels, look at Tori Amos and Sarah Mclachlan, both great singer/ song writers; every album is different and unique b/c as they mature and experience different things their music reflects that. She's doing the same as them, a lot of people need to stop focusing so much on what she's done with the music in the past and appreciate what she's doing now, we already have one BNN we don't need a second.
edit: only real disapponitment for me was that All is Well wasn't on the album, it was my most anticipated track (almost cried when I saw the track list :wink: ). Hopefully there's a studio version of it somewhere that we'll get to hear at some point :D .
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Actually, I am disappointed, but if other people like it, that's great. I'm not going to try and change their mind... also, good on the people who are willing to admit that they don't like it and give their opinion... it's gutsy because on these boards, I've noticed that if you do, then pepole have a go at you. If you like the album, then no-one else's personal opinion should matter all that much to you, because YOU enjoy it ... so why get angry at someone who doesn't enjoy it? If you feel you must tell them that you disagree and why, then fair enough, but why argue and attack, rather than discuss? I don't get it.
Personally, I don't like the album because it's missing what Vanessa called the "goth" element that was woven into the demos, BNN, Harmonium (especially so), and other B-sides and live tracks. That's what I truly love about Vanessa's music. If that's not what makes you a fan of Vanessa than you may find nothing to complain about with H&T... but that's what attracted me to her music in the first place. I was never a fan of ATM, but when I borrowed BNN from a friend I loved Wanted, Twilight, Paint it Black, Sway, etc. and became a fan that way. That side of Vanessa seems to be absent in H&T.
You have to remember though, she wrote her first CD when she was just a teenager in a hardcore ballet school. She was at a really low place in her life and had to release it somehow. She was only a child.
Vanessa is approaching 30 now; her inspiration is coming from new experiences and emotions that comes with things we go through as we get older. Her lyrics are maturing because she has too, and we're lucky enough to have her sharing that with us. :)
She couldn't keep that gothy kind of style forever, it'd be weird if she was still singing when she was 40 about those kind of things. :lol:
ps) i'm not calling her old or anything...i'm just trying to get the point across that she's matured :-)
I get your point, but I don't agree with it. Obviously you're right that she's got older and therfore is writing about different things. However, as for not being able to keep the "gothy kind of style" forever, I think that maybe personally she didn't continue with it, but "gothy style" isn't just a phase that "children" go through. Sure, it can be, but it can also be a part of a person's personality and individual nature that is completely valid (and not "weird"), whether they are 14 or 40 or whatever age. Also, it is completely valid for me to feel disppointed that that "gothy kind of style" is missing from the new album.
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I'm disappointed... all the songs sound the same. Still. I've given it a while to warm up to (of course, I ran and bought it the day it was released lol!) and I still just.... I don't know. The only songs that stand out are Fools like Me, Hands on Me, and the outro to Home. I really don't think that the lyrics have matured... in fact, I think it's a bit of a regression. On Harmonium it didn't seem like she was a slave to end rhymes, and Harmonium was more... metaphorical, I guess you could say. Heroes and Thieves is just... okay, this is what I'm writing about. The lyrics don't leave anything for interpretation. For instance, I had NO idea that Private radio was about Insomnia until she said so, I didn't know what it was about at all, really, and that's why I liked it. It had different meanings for whatever mood I was in.
And like I said, it all kind of sounds the same. The intro to The One sounding promising, but I hate it. I don't like to say that, but I really don't like that song. It sounds kind of corny and country to me. Then Come Undone sounding like Dark Carnival, like V revisiting her younger, darker self, but then.... it kind of got annoying after 45 seconds [I think you could all agree haha!] and My Best sounded like C'est la Vie. Like she said, 'well, I have to use keyboards somewhere on this album.'
And what was with that little r&b noise in hands on Me? Or am I the only one who noticed that :?
But yes, I do love her alto voice now, though. I never knew she could sing so deep! And that showed especially in Fools like Me.
I guess after all these years of waiting, and all the crappy but endearing because they're crappy bootlegs, and intimate little gigs, I was expecting something GARGANTUAN. Like, God! This is really going to kick my ass!! But it didn't, and that makes me sad to be honest :(
But, a little bit of clumsiness is to be expected with a new record label. As long as she's proud with what she's accomplished and most of us are happy, then that's the important part. I just... I was kind of hoping for a slightly lighter [but still dark and pondering] Harmonium. She had so much to complain about, with all the crap she took from record labels, and she didn't! She got all lovey-dovey on me!
Alright. That's it, sorry! lol
*it's not that I HATE the album, it's just that's it okay. I don't love it like I love her first previous works.
[p.s. this was a long first post. Sorry! :)]
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cheburashka! Wow I entirely understand where you're coming from. I didn't realize it before but I guess really enjoy listening to her more unique music/goth? music (singing about topics outside of falling in love). And on top of that Vanessa and her producers crafted those topics into beautiful Harmonium tracks. I love all the piano intros in Harmonium. So Grand and to the Point--gets you to the heat of her classical piano skills and the heat of her lyrics. Intros for H&T were bad. BAD. I love Vanessa and her music, I'm sorry Vanessa! But. The thing is, I tried listening to each track 4 to 5 times again, and I straight up go on tangents wondering what happened in the recording studio. It's not that I Hate the album. I know I don't love the album. I might not even really really like H&T. Home and Come Undone have grown on me, but it's still kind of bland without the orchestra stuff done on Harmonium. I admit I like the lyrics, despite my comments about it being overdone with the falling-in-love, breaking up, and dealing with breaking up subjects. But mainly I like the lyrics because they were well-written, not because of the topic. EW's right, the songs are very pretentious, maybe our Vanessa has gone idealistic on us. Not meaning Vanessa is idealistic in real life, but the songs come out that way--very pretentious.
Basically I can listen to harmonium all day and still be amazed by how brilliant and beautiful music can be when Vanessa behind the piano. After listening to H&T three times, I feel incomplete. The wrong-ness of the album has become one of my pet peeve's. The producers messed up the songs on top of the fact that the story behind the songs aren't great. I think they also fixed her voice with computer engineered stuff on Harmonium, which made it better. Vanessa was a little off-key in Home and another track.
Like cheburashka said, it's inevitably a little shaky for a new label, especially a hip hop label, to release a pop/rock album. The instruments used, the way they were used, sounded wrong--the puzzle piece did not fit the puzzle. Really really dislike the intros for most of the songs. Especially with Fools Like Me, the whistling thing threw me off. When did Vanessa start whistling or let people whistle on a "fools like me" type of track. Fools like me was a potentially good song turned into potentially worst song on the album. (sorry for being overdramatic with the contrasts!). I wanted fools like me to be heartbreaking, not uplifting. And the choir really annoys me, on "more than this." It overshadows Vanessa's voice. "The One"' intro with Stevie's Nicks is one word: scary. Scary like a scary part in a scary movie. How did they ever decide to include stevie in a ballad? Stevie in Vanessa Ballad=strange. I know I sound harsh, but here are my opinions, entirely un-sugarcoated/straight up my personal/individually artistic views.
This post is getting way too long and I'm starting to ramble. haha. I Apologize!
I want a more matured Vanessa, one bursting with new topics, and little transformations here or there. H&T Songs are so love-sick, fantasized, and heartbreaking now. Don't know what to make of it.
But again like Cheburashka said (came up with some great points), Vanessa can really sing now. Can't even hear her breathing between lines anymore. Great vocal improvements for Vanessa!
I don't know if anyone else noticed... Vanessa seemed withdrawn on TRL. She barely cracked a smile. She always appears to be tired (I KNOW she always looked tired before but now she looks straight up sad and dejected)--like her livelihood has been sucked out of her. She's only 27, yet she acts like someone much older. She needs to have some fun. Find someone new! Maybe/probably the break-up caused this grief/pain that is now projecting externally. I don't know. I really really hope that Vanessa feels alive or happy again. =(
As long as Vanessa is satisfied, I guess it's cool with me too. I think we all create really really high expectations for Vanessa, especially with her first album in 3 three years, because she's so incredibly talented! And unique and down-to-earth, the list goes on and on. Please don't hate me for the strong opinions I've expressed!
-HearingBallads
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Wow, I just read this thread, I didn't really pay attention to it before.
I don't think I'm THAT disappointed in H&T. I know I was expecting more p&v songs (Dan, I don't think listening to them for 50 minutes would be an exhausting listen ;)).
My personal tastes are more into acoustic stuff, hence "Home" is problably my favorite track on the cd.
But the rest is fine too and sometimes I enjoy listening to produced music (even overproduced).
I don't really think we should blame Vanessa for how this album sounds: sure, it's less darker than Harmonium (and I DID love the "dark VC") but she needs to get back out there (= mainstream music world).
So if H&T sells better and gives her the credit/money she deserves/needs and helps her create more awesome music in the future, I'm all for it! :)
To sum it up, H&T is a great album and I'm proud of Vanessa and still amazed by her piano skills.
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I was not disappointed with Heroes & Thieves at all. I think it's her best album yet so far, her most mainstream accessible CD but at the same time it's not something that's going to taint her indie vibe cred. (If you know what I mean) It is just as enjoyable as her debut album, if not, even more. Sure, Harmonium was fantastic, but there were songs on it I just couldn't get into like the songs on Heroes & Thieves. I personally LOVE Nolita Fairytale, Hands on Me, The One (This might be my favorite VC song- of all time) and Fools Like Me. But the whole thing is just fantastic.
I am really satisfied with this album, and I am hoping she'll get the recognition she deserves with it.
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Well, Saulo and Ghisy, that's the thing for me. I don't think V needs to be mainstream famous. I think that after BNN's crazy success, she feels the need to be near the spotlight. But really, she doesn't need it! H&T would have been just as good if it was an indie label or even self released. That way, she could have done whatever songs she wanted with the necessary accompanying instruments. Like NoLita live doesn't sound anything like on the album; it has more strings and it's more choppy and... sounds like something she would have liked to do for H&T. And just that she tried to give the album a "theme" seemed slightly childish for me. An album doesn't need a "theme;" the emotion of the songs will come together to make up a grand story. That's why harmonium was the best album; all of the songs sounded completely different from one another, and each had their own unique story to tell. You'd listen to one and skip forward to the next and say "Whoa! where did THAT come from?!" because each showed a versatile V.
I'll reiterate; it's a good album for anyone else, but, to me, for V, it fell short
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Why can't you guys just accept, that her vision for this record was intended to be positive and just chapters of what she's been trough. So no "goth" shit, she's not in that place right now. She's a pop artist, and she's always been pop. There's nothing wrong with that.
So you didn't get a Harmonium part 2, get over it already.
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double post
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Why can't you guys just accept, that her vision for this record was intended to be positive and just chapters of what she's been trough.
Exactly. She's not writing about dark things because those things aren't happening to her right now.
And the thing about her livelihood being sucked out or whatever.. She ended a five year relationship, or however long. As positive as she tries to sound with songs like My Best and praising Stephan's musical talent, I'm sure she was absolutely devastated and is still trying to get over it.
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yea I agree with Cheburashka again. I wouldn't have minded if Heroes and Thieves wasn't in the spotlight. A lot of great artists or scientists, haha, weren't discovered until they're dead, not that I don't want vanessa to get the recognition she deserves, but I think the songs are what is important. Yea I love surprises, unfortunately this album did not provide those surprises, in a good way. And Vanessa's trying too hard I think to become what others expect , want?, from her. She should just produce write great songs and put them all in an album, ex. include best behavior and all is well, and toss the whole theme thing out.
If you're happy with the album, thats great. Be happy. Don't need to attack others who have different opinions....
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Why can't you guys just accept, that her vision for this record was intended to be positive and just chapters of what she's been trough.
Exactly. She's not writing about dark things because those things aren't happening to her right now.
And the thing about her livelihood being sucked out or whatever.. She ended a five year relationship, or however long. As positive as she tries to sound with songs like My Best and praising Stephan's musical talent, I'm sure she was absolutely devastated and is still trying to get over it.
Thank you. And it's also not because she broke up with Stephan, that she should've went back into the studio, and write "dark" songs about that her heart is broken, yadayadayada. If that were the case we could've waited another year for the record. Or maybe even longer!
Just be content with what you have, Vanessa poured her heart and soul into this record. I'm just grateful she didn't disapear from the music scene all together.
She provided a heartfelt record, no superficial shit. She's still genuine, and progressing. Just let her be for God's sake!
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yea I agree with Cheburashka again. I wouldn't have minded if Heroes and Thieves wasn't in the spotlight. A lot of great artists or scientists, haha, weren't discovered until they're dead, not that I don't want vanessa to get the recognition she deserves, but I think the songs are what is important. Yea I love surprises, unfortunately this album did not provide those surprises, in a good way. And Vanessa's trying too hard I think to become what others expect , want?, from her. She should just produce write great songs and put them all in an album, ex. include best behavior and all is well, and toss the whole theme thing out.
If you're happy with the album, thats great. Be happy. Don't need to attack others who have different opinions....
It was HER decision to have a theme on this record! And she's not trying too hard to prove herself or whatever. This was the record SHE wanted okay.
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I suppose no one can express their honest and respectful opinion without someone attacking them. No need to be overly sensitive, I'm not jabbing at her personally; this is just what I see. Again, I LIKE the album, but I don't love it. I support her whatever she decides to do. Sorry I said anything
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I said it before, I guess I'll have to say it again, I don't love or really really like the album, but I don't hate it. I enjoy listening to it. It just doesn't have the effect Harmonium had on me.
So Butz can you please calm down.
The fact that I'm even posting here, it means that I genuinely care, and am offering my honest opinion for the good of vanessa's music making. I honestly still believe in the things I said above, I won't take them back. Like I said BEFORE, I respect Vanessa, so therefore, since she's proud of H&T , I am more than happy for her. And the fact that she has a label that lets her do her thing and believes in her whole-heartedly is another great great thing. Why Do I Have to Keep Explaining/Reiterating My Words in here when I wasn't even attacking Vanessa in the first place. There's a difference between having opinions to attack and having them to analysis a situation. I'm the latter.
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I'm afraid I was a little dissapointed with the new album, I didn't expect anything dark because most of the previews for the songs were upbeat but I was dissapointed with the lyrics mostly and the musical style of some of the songs. I think I need to let the album grow on me but at the moment, I really only enjoy Nolita Fairytale and This Time.
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AND I was disappointed with "Hands On Me." Why did they have to make one of my favorite songs on the album so alternative. RUINED it for me. I thought all her live performances of hands on me were amazing, heart-felt, personal, just the way I imagined her studio version to be. But NO it just isn't the same. I really wanted a nice clear, quality version of Hands On Me with the traditional piano and V's voice, and perhaps violin in the background. ARGH.
AGREED!! i felt the same way..also somewhat with fools like me. the metronome thing totally turned me off. i love when she changes tempos.
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Ok, sorry guys but I was just venting. Cause there are some other users here, who just tore this album apart. Like it was total shit, and I'm just being defensive. Not sensitive, I'm not neurotic in that way.
Just let it grown on you, that's all I have to say. I had the same thing with other artists records, and the record will grow on you. You can't love every album equally the same, I understand that. But some peeps, just give up. And start picking every negative thing about it. And I can't stand that pessimistic crap.
I read your last comments, and now I see that you're not bashing or whatever (:
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Actually, I am disappointed, but if other people like it, that's great. I'm not going to try and change their mind... also, good on the people who are willing to admit that they don't like it and give their opinion... it's gutsy because on these boards, I've noticed that if you do, then pepole have a go at you. If you like the album, then no-one else's personal opinion should matter all that much to you, because YOU enjoy it ... so why get angry at someone who doesn't enjoy it? If you feel you must tell them that you disagree and why, then fair enough, but why argue and attack, rather than discuss? I don't get it.
Personally, I don't like the album because it's missing what Vanessa called the "goth" element that was woven into the demos, BNN, Harmonium (especially so), and other B-sides and live tracks. That's what I truly love about Vanessa's music. If that's not what makes you a fan of Vanessa than you may find nothing to complain about with H&T... but that's what attracted me to her music in the first place. I was never a fan of ATM, but when I borrowed BNN from a friend I loved Wanted, Twilight, Paint it Black, Sway, etc. and became a fan that way. That side of Vanessa seems to be absent in H&T.
You have to remember though, she wrote her first CD when she was just a teenager in a hardcore ballet school. She was at a really low place in her life and had to release it somehow. She was only a child.
Vanessa is approaching 30 now; her inspiration is coming from new experiences and emotions that comes with things we go through as we get older. Her lyrics are maturing because she has too, and we're lucky enough to have her sharing that with us. :)
She couldn't keep that gothy kind of style forever, it'd be weird if she was still singing when she was 40 about those kind of things. :lol:
ps) i'm not calling her old or anything...i'm just trying to get the point across that she's matured :-)
I get your point, but I don't agree with it. Obviously you're right that she's got older and therfore is writing about different things. However, as for not being able to keep the "gothy kind of style" forever, I think that maybe personally she didn't continue with it, but "gothy style" isn't just a phase that "children" go through. Sure, it can be, but it can also be a part of a person's personality and individual nature that is completely valid (and not "weird"), whether they are 14 or 40 or whatever age. Also, it is completely valid for me to feel disppointed that that "gothy kind of style" is missing from the new album.
You're right, being goth is in your personality, rather than a phase.
I can see how you must be disappointed also because, overall, it's really a matter of anyone's music tastes.
Personally, I think that she honed that darkness for All Is Well and Morning Sting. They sound like songs she might have put, to me atleast, on BNN, given the opportunity.
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Actually, I am disappointed, but if other people like it, that's great. I'm not going to try and change their mind... also, good on the people who are willing to admit that they don't like it and give their opinion... it's gutsy because on these boards, I've noticed that if you do, then pepole have a go at you. If you like the album, then no-one else's personal opinion should matter all that much to you, because YOU enjoy it ... so why get angry at someone who doesn't enjoy it? If you feel you must tell them that you disagree and why, then fair enough, but why argue and attack, rather than discuss? I don't get it.
Personally, I don't like the album because it's missing what Vanessa called the "goth" element that was woven into the demos, BNN, Harmonium (especially so), and other B-sides and live tracks. That's what I truly love about Vanessa's music. If that's not what makes you a fan of Vanessa than you may find nothing to complain about with H&T... but that's what attracted me to her music in the first place. I was never a fan of ATM, but when I borrowed BNN from a friend I loved Wanted, Twilight, Paint it Black, Sway, etc. and became a fan that way. That side of Vanessa seems to be absent in H&T.
You have to remember though, she wrote her first CD when she was just a teenager in a hardcore ballet school. She was at a really low place in her life and had to release it somehow. She was only a child.
Vanessa is approaching 30 now; her inspiration is coming from new experiences and emotions that comes with things we go through as we get older. Her lyrics are maturing because she has too, and we're lucky enough to have her sharing that with us. :)
She couldn't keep that gothy kind of style forever, it'd be weird if she was still singing when she was 40 about those kind of things. :lol:
ps) i'm not calling her old or anything...i'm just trying to get the point across that she's matured :-)
I get your point, but I don't agree with it. Obviously you're right that she's got older and therfore is writing about different things. However, as for not being able to keep the "gothy kind of style" forever, I think that maybe personally she didn't continue with it, but "gothy style" isn't just a phase that "children" go through. Sure, it can be, but it can also be a part of a person's personality and individual nature that is completely valid (and not "weird"), whether they are 14 or 40 or whatever age. Also, it is completely valid for me to feel disppointed that that "gothy kind of style" is missing from the new album.
You're right, being goth is in your personality, rather than a phase.
I can see how you must be disappointed also because, overall, it's really a matter of anyone's music tastes.
Personally, I think that she honed that darkness for All Is Well and Morning Sting. They sound like songs she might have put, to me atleast, on BNN, given the opportunity.
Goth is just a so called style of music, and supposively a form of expression as a result. You can be any age or any type of personality and still decide to make "Goth" style music. Amy Lee has said that she and her band are not sad but actually enjoy making sad and dark music, at which time she had a smile on her face. (not a direct quote)
I'm not going to go into why I think VC made the album sound the way she did, but perhaps it has to do with a dichotomy. All these bad things happened to her but in the end she was able to conquer them and find happiness...or something....the songs have some terrible dark lyrics but the music itself is upbeat.
Maybe VC should send us a message and tell us herself so people like me aren't temped to over intellectualize everything like I usually do.
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Actually, I am disappointed, but if other people like it, that's great. I'm not going to try and change their mind... also, good on the people who are willing to admit that they don't like it and give their opinion... it's gutsy because on these boards, I've noticed that if you do, then pepole have a go at you. If you like the album, then no-one else's personal opinion should matter all that much to you, because YOU enjoy it ... so why get angry at someone who doesn't enjoy it? If you feel you must tell them that you disagree and why, then fair enough, but why argue and attack, rather than discuss? I don't get it.
Personally, I don't like the album because it's missing what Vanessa called the "goth" element that was woven into the demos, BNN, Harmonium (especially so), and other B-sides and live tracks. That's what I truly love about Vanessa's music. If that's not what makes you a fan of Vanessa than you may find nothing to complain about with H&T... but that's what attracted me to her music in the first place. I was never a fan of ATM, but when I borrowed BNN from a friend I loved Wanted, Twilight, Paint it Black, Sway, etc. and became a fan that way. That side of Vanessa seems to be absent in H&T.
I agree with you that this album is missing the dark side. My favourite songs are the darker ones; Paradise, Rinse, Sway, HAWBT, C'est La Vie, Swindler etc etc and I am disappointed that this album is lacking in that, but on the other hand it's possibly my favourite album (it's between that and BNN). I really like how the album feels "whole" and the songs all have a certain something that links them in the way the sound. I can understand why you're disappointed basically.
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But if she didn't want to include that dark side (cause she's not feeling it right now, not in it right now), can you blame her?
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But if she didn't want to include that dark side (cause she's not feeling it right now, not in it right now), can you blame her?
No, she can release what she wants. I think she's still got it in her, because of All Is Well/Best Behaviour but she wants to get her career back on track and she'll have more success with these kind of songs. I think she's still staying true to herself, this is just a different side of her. This is just what I think anyway, I could be completely wrong :) But I can and will miss the dark stuff! :P
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glad we're both understanding things on the same level butz.
Yea beautyofspeed! I think this may or may not be true, but if it is it makes sense. I love her dark stuff I enjoy the ocassional happy stuff, but sometimes you can find more depth in the dark stuff.
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I think she was omitting the "darker" stuff on purpose, since the potential darkest song on the album - Fools Like Me - is even cheerful sounding.
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I think she was omitting the "darker" stuff on purpose, since the potential darkest song on the album - Fools Like Me - is even cheerful sounding.
It's like the lyrics and the circumstances are the Thieves, and the music is the hero....as in music saves you. Remember when in the dorm it was a way for her to express herself? Music can be a release...but on this album it is more of a triumph.