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Vanessa Carlton => General Vanessa Carlton Discussion => Topic started by: pswik91 on September 29, 2008, 06:06:16 pm
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Ok, I don't know if it's just me but, I really don't think that this new record deal with The Inc. is really helping V out. I mean if you look at charts A&M made her over 1000000 copies of BNN, compared to like however many H&T sold. I just think that she should just stay in her zone with the songs but like do something different and better b/c heroes and thieves wasn't that amazing. I know that sounds mean but I love V, and I just hate to see that she's not getting enough promotion from her record company.
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Everyone doesn't share your opinion.
To me, "Harmonium" and "Heroes & Thieves" are so much better than "Be Not Nobody" which wasn't exactly her album but more Ron Fair's in my opinion... I don't think that Vanessa will ever again sell a million copy of a record and I don't think that this is what she wants.
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well I know that not everyone is goingo to agree with what I say, but I'm simply stating that she sold more albums with a different record label. Look how the other two albums before heroes and thieves turned out. All i am saying is that i enjoyed how she made harmonium, and i wish that she could've done something along those lines but not similar. Like i wish she would just play on a regular yamaha piano like she does for all of her concerts because i love the sound of her playing on one. that's just my opinion though lol :lol:
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I believe H & T did better than Harmonium. Sale wise? I could be wrong, but last I checked(I didn't actually check) I belive it pushed more copies. And I agree with the other reply to this thread, I think Harmonium and H&T are great albums, my fav from Vanessa....especially Harmonium. She Floats and The Wreckage are just epic. The whole album actually. The music industry is in a completly different place than it was with BNN was released...people are not buying albums like they used too. Maddona, Mariah and Janet are not selling albums. So that should prove something, right? Although I don't like those artists I do read up on this subject a lot. It's time for artists like Vanessa who have a backbone, a dedicated fanbase to go indie and make good for themselves. It's really the only rhode for success number wise for artists who fall on the smaller scale like Vanessa. I believe she has it on her mind....but shes going to need to adopt the internet and all it's communities more so than she does now to really make it work.
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Yeah, I agree with what Cyril said. Harmonium and H&T were the best V albums, and BNN was more Ron Fair than V. I, too, think she should go independent.
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well it's just a lesson that rebounds rarely work out. V and Irv weren't a couple or anything, but after she broke up with Stephan she rebounded to Irv because he was flattering and provided support and praise, but it was short-lived. He was a lot of talk and she was feeling low so she fell for it.
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The Inc suck.
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The Inc suck.
enough said.
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The Inc suck.
enough said.
Agreed.
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Personally I think the way they changed her songs on HAT were awful. It made a too upbeat Vanessa. I think this last record, and her personality at her concerts have really turned me off from Vanessa for a while. I mean I still support her, but her last cd sucks. The music is good, but the instrumentation, and the plastic-ness of it really took its toll - EX. HOM is upbeat, and not as emotional as it could have been. I don't know I STILL think that Harm was the best and HAT was my least favorite cd.
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Changed her songs? Pshhh.
I agree with the rebound comment...I think she should have taken a little bit more time before jumping onto another ship. I think H&T is amazing, and I don't think The Inc had anything to do with the way it sounded(besides the drums @ the end of Home, which I love). I don't think she would make somebody elses' record. It's unfair to attack the record label for Vanessas personality at shows. A different or better label isn't going to make Vanessa a 'star' unless she looses all personal control...and becomes a mindless robot. Who wants that? No one. H&T was a great record..just not very marketable. If H&T was an independent release we would see more touring, because thats how you make money when you are indie. Usually artists on an independemt label have a 50/50 deal with their distributer. I don't know what you guys want out of a label.
Isntead of making 6 percent of 50,000.
Why not make 50 percent of 50,000.
25,000 x 12.00= alot of cash.
Vannesa when your back from your pregnant pause, check out redeyeusa.com
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But how much promotion is enough promotion? Putting her face on billboards everywhere? I suppose they could've played her songs on the radio more, but you can't really force people to like it. Most people are sucked into the pop/rap crap of today, and people don't know what real music sounds like.
So is it really the Inc's fault? She had more promotion for HAT than Harmonium for sure though.. (at least from what I've seen).
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i completely and totally agree with blue glove. it's like how everyone was super excited whenever harmonium came out, because it was like omg new vanessa album how awesome!! and the singles were good too. I was more excited then to hear all of harmonium than for hat. I completely fell in love with the enchanting melody of a real piano instead of a whatever the hell piano she used on hat. I mean i just wish v would go back to doing that it's her thing and it sounds so much better.
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i think H&T is my favorite so i totally disagree with everyone in this thread.
the only tracks i think turned out poorly were HOM and This Time.
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i love heroes & thieves. i dearly love harmonium, too. maybe more. but i am still very impressed by heroes & thieves and i believe it was all her. if that's the way her sound evolved, then okay. i don't think she lost creative control at all.
hm, how many times is this discussion going to come up? isn't this the third/fourth/fifth thread on this?
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Personally I think the way they changed her songs on HAT were awful. It made a too upbeat Vanessa. I think this last record, and her personality at her concerts have really turned me off from Vanessa for a while. I mean I still support her, but her last cd sucks. The music is good, but the instrumentation, and the plastic-ness of it really took its toll - EX. HOM is upbeat, and not as emotional as it could have been. I don't know I STILL think that Harm was the best and HAT was my least favorite cd.
Hmm, I looked for an emoticon with clapping hands but there isn't one.
I agree about H&T being too upbeat in a plastic-y way. Personally I think even the songs that aren't really "upbeat" as such sound diluted and therefore bland to me.
I find H&T both cheesy and dull. I know some people find it to be excellent, but I don't. I found her music to be so interesting and full of character before and I miss it.
So what is her "personality at concerts"? (Never been to one unfortunately...)
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Be Not Nobody in my opinion was the best Vanessa Carlton that I was ever exposed to, musically. Harmonium was okay, some songs that were just too pop for me but others were good. Heroes & Thieves was very very disappointing. I hardly ever listen to it, when I do I listen to the actual song Heroes and Thieves, Home, or More than this. Everything else is just plastic. I was listening to BnN again the other day, I have never gotten sick of that CD. I miss that side of Vanessa deeply...her tours are not what they used to be and I feel like I'm becoming less of a fan because of the direction she is choosing to go. I don't know who she is anymore and that does make me really upset, she was my hope and inspiration for so many years. :cry:
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i hardly ever listen to BNN. i think it is much too polished. it sounds like adult contemporary and she was still so young. the songs have potential but they lack emotion and the piano lacks richness and sounds like it was run through a computer fifty times. not to mention her voice sounds pretty terrible most of the record.
i think HAT is so special to me because i can honestly identify with almost every track on the record. i feel like she spied on me for the last 3 years of my life and then wrote an album about it.
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I like Ron Fair's work on BNN. It made a good song even better. He is very talented. I also like Stephan's influence on the second album. Just in a different way. The third album is also very interesting in some ways and VC makes some interesting music. It's funny how you can put two artists together like different spices or flavors and you come up with something different everytime. I wonder what VC and Toby would come out with if they were to make something. I think it was Enya who worked with Toby and they came out with something either one of them might not have done by themselves. It still was distictively Enya and still distinctively Toby but 100% professional. So I'm wondering what that would come out with.
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i don't know what v has in stores for us in the future, but I hope that it's something juicy!! No matter what she decides to do i'm backing V 100000% Good Luck V :D
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Well I dont really like the Inc, but I do like H&T, I also like Harmonium, and BNN. I really dont think either Harmonium or H&T got enough promotion and they were released with two different record labels. Vanessa just isnt really cut out for main stream again. I would love a hit but then to me every song is is kind of like a hit.
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I said(typed) white houses but I meant Harmonium.
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Vanessa just isnt really cut out for main stream again. I would love a hit but then to me every song is is kind of like a hit.
I do agree with you. 2002 is in the past...
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i think it is much too polished. it sounds like adult contemporary and she was still so young. the songs have potential but they lack emotion and the piano lacks richness and sounds like it was run through a computer fifty times.
I agree with that statement. "BnN" is great but lacks personality at times.
"Harmonium" and "H&T" are absolutely great albums, they feel so "Vanessa-ish" to me. Not to mention that "Home" is the best song ever. 8)
And I don't understand what some people mean by Vanessa's personality at shows?! She's always been very nice to me and she was even sick the first time she agreed to meet me! (so she could have easily said no)
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And I don't understand what some people mean by Vanessa's personality at shows?! She's always been very nice to me and she was even sick the first time she agreed to meet me! (so she could have easily said no)[/quote]
totally agree, she's always been more than friendly to me. she let me pet lord victor and shook my hand, i mean come on! how is that not nice?
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Alright, so obviously we're not all going to agree as to what the best Vanessa album is... but here's what I think.
For me, Harmonium and Heroes & Thieves are the best... and, while Be Not Nobody has some great moments, it's not even close to the other 2 in terms of musical complexity, vocal abilities, and melodic content.
Harmonium is more like the sophomore album to Be Not Nobody (which it is, but hear me out). Think about it: same record label, slightly more mature direction, more creative control, Ron Fair still being available, etc.
And obviously, Heroes & Thieves, seeing as it is on a different record label, is going to sound a little bit different. However, I actually think that while it can get very commercial and synthesized at times, the songs themselves are wonderful. What I think could have made this better is using the same style of arrangement and mix that they used on the two previous albums: supplementing V's inspiring piano (not synthesizer, piano) accompaniment with strings and other such orchestral instruments. Honestly, that's the only thing that I think may have obstructed the presentation of these equally wonderful songs.
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The Inc. Sucked.
But BNN Ron Fair's album?
No. She wrote that entire album herself, as opposed to Harmonium and H&T which were all co-written.
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Be Not Nobody in my opinion was the best Vanessa Carlton that I was ever exposed to, musically. Harmonium was okay, some songs that were just too pop for me but others were good. Heroes & Thieves was very very disappointing. I hardly ever listen to it, when I do I listen to the actual song Heroes and Thieves, Home, or More than this. Everything else is just plastic. I was listening to BnN again the other day, I have never gotten sick of that CD. I miss that side of Vanessa deeply...her tours are not what they used to be and I feel like I'm becoming less of a fan because of the direction she is choosing to go. I don't know who she is anymore and that does make me really upset, she was my hope and inspiration for so many years. :cry:
Other than BNN being the best (imo, Harmonium), I agree.
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I agree that BNN was her album, but in a way it was just all recycled. Most of the songs were from Rinse and they were just changed the way Ron Fair wanted them. Sure she agreed to them but I feel she was more happy with Harmonium. I like Harmonium the most I just hate how it was pretty much tossed to the literal back burner.
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There are a number of factors which play a role in the success (or non-success) of an album and artist.
I personally was surprised at how much of a failure the return of Irv Gotti and The Inc. was. What that can be attributed to, I'm not really sure. All of the previous things Irv did to promote his artists and get out into the mainstream never really developed. That could have been due to Irv not holding the keys to the castle (so to speak), the changes the industry underwent since Irv was last successful, or many other factors.
As for BnN, that CD was loaded with pop/ac type songs that could sell on the radio. While some people criticize that, that is why it sold so many records, along with the monetary push it received from A&M. I still think the original cut of Pretty Baby would have sold better than the radio remix, but I'm not a big fan of radio remixes.
Harmonium had very little monetary push, which left on the table the potential for songs such as Private Radio and Who's to Say to blow up in the mainstream. I think between Private Radio and Who's to Say V could have blown up all over again, but it never happened.
Heroes & Thieves got more monetary push than Harmonium, but other than Nolita Fairytale the CD does not have one song that would even fit in on typical pop or ac stations. That isn't to say the songs are bad, because they're not, but they're harder to sell to the mainstream because they're not cute and catchy and such.
My personal favorite album is probably Harmonium because of the growth in V's voice from 2002 to 2004, and the breadth of songs on the album.
It is truly hard to compare the three albums because they, and the circumstances surrounding them, are all different.
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i know nobody can really listen to what i have to say or agree with it but i think this "record deal" switch to irv was a flop and a half. for one i love her music on all three albums, but heroes and thieves just was so like pop and like fake it didn't fit any of the songs how i pictured they'd be. I hope V realizes that just because someone says "WOW V YOU'RE THE F*&%ING S$%T" doesn't make them the best producer in the world ha. I hope she like switches and uses a real good quality piano.
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at least she's said shes happy.
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for one i love her music on all three albums, but heroes and thieves just was so like pop and like fake it didn't fit any of the songs how i pictured they'd be.
don't knock all of it. "home" was ridiculously beautiful, and "more than this" was a gorgeous surprise, too. "heroes & thieves" was good, and the album version of "hands on me" definitely grew on me, though i still prefer it acoustically. "nolita fairytale" was different and fun.
so, what, that's half the album at least that i definitely loved. the rest i can make peace with. it wasn't such an epic failure, though harmonium remains my favorite, too.
and as people rightly said before me, as long as she's happy.
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I think "Nolita", "My Best", "Heroes", "Home" and "More Than This" are the best songs on the album.
The rest are okay, but they're just *there*.
Oh yeah, "Come Undone" is pretty nice.
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I think all of them are amazing. Just because you can't sing a long to all of them or maybe the melody isn't her classic style doesn't mean it was a failure at all. I think you guys are way too hard on her.
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I enjoy all the songs on Heroes and Thieves!
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I can actually listen to H&T all the way through and enjoy it. Of course I have my favorites The One, Home, More Than This.
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Vanessa wrote the songs NOT the record company. Although I did perfer H&T (the song) with just vocals and piano it turned out nice, and I agree Home was lovely! I cant think of a single overly produced song... Ok maybe it could have been a bit more piano and less synth but its all good. Hasn't anyone noticed Vanessa wirtes fo herself?! all the alblums have distinct sounds BNN, Harmonium, and H&T were all very different. Im sure some BNN fans didnt like Harmonium... We cant all be happy, but the point is (as far as we know) Vanessa is.
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There are a number of factors which play a role in the success (or non-success) of an album and artist.
I personally was surprised at how much of a failure the return of Irv Gotti and The Inc. was. What that can be attributed to, I'm not really sure. All of the previous things Irv did to promote his artists and get out into the mainstream never really developed. That could have been due to Irv not holding the keys to the castle (so to speak), the changes the industry underwent since Irv was last successful, or many other factors.
As for BnN, that CD was loaded with pop/ac type songs that could sell on the radio. While some people criticize that, that is why it sold so many records, along with the monetary push it received from A&M. I still think the original cut of Pretty Baby would have sold better than the radio remix, but I'm not a big fan of radio remixes.
Harmonium had very little monetary push, which left on the table the potential for songs such as Private Radio and Who's to Say to blow up in the mainstream. I think between Private Radio and Who's to Say V could have blown up all over again, but it never happened.
Heroes & Thieves got more monetary push than Harmonium, but other than Nolita Fairytale the CD does not have one song that would even fit in on typical pop or ac stations. That isn't to say the songs are bad, because they're not, but they're harder to sell to the mainstream because they're not cute and catchy and such.
My personal favorite album is probably Harmonium because of the growth in V's voice from 2002 to 2004, and the breadth of songs on the album.
It is truly hard to compare the three albums because they, and the circumstances surrounding them, are all different.
I agree 100% with everything you have said. I don't get why people think H&T was messed with by The Inc. It sounds mighty uncommercial to me, though I like it.
All I can come up with is that The Inc. was generally NOT lighting up the charts on any release, so I'm sure all Universal support disappeared. Irv has no magic wand to wave....he probably did the best he could. He listens to V and he GETS it; it's a shame he couldn't parlay that into big numbers, but hey, so many albums are on illegal sites I wonder why anyone bothers. Crap, an indie album I just played on is up there on a file sharing site. It's totally out of control.
For me, I'm glad that VC has appeared to snap out of the funk that she was in, whatever it was. Here's to new Vanessa music!
The music biz blows dog, and it always has, except now instead of a piece of the pie, it's more like a cupcake. If that.
Dan/NS
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People who blame The Inc for how the album sounds are blaming the wrong person.
Irv gave her 100% creative control. He didn't make her do anything with that album.
If you want to blame anybody, blame Vanessa.
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People who blame The Inc for how the album sounds are blaming the wrong person.
Irv gave her 100% creative control. He didn't make her do anything with that album.
If you want to blame anybody, blame Vanessa.
Thank you! Voice of reason!
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Sorry for a double post, I dont know how to delete it.
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at least she's said shes happy.
That is a very good point.
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Yeah, that's right.. I mean, if she's happy, then screw everyone else! Just as long as she can get by doing whatever she wants, then let her do it.
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People who blame The Inc for how the album sounds are blaming the wrong person.
Irv gave her 100% creative control. He didn't make her do anything with that album.
If you want to blame anybody, blame Vanessa.
word up.
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I wonder if she's still with the Inc. I know she had a two-year-deal promotion for "Heroes & Thieves"...
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I wish she would get with a record company that would promote her properly. They always seem to fall short. I know that the songs have a lot to do with the success of the album but the album also has to be pushed into the public eye too.
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I wonder if she's still with the Inc. I know she had a two-year-deal promotion for "Heroes & Thieves"...
Well, she's still featured on The Inc's website:
(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3873/67087097fq0.th.jpg) (http://img8.imageshack.us/my.php?image=67087097fq0.jpg)
So if the site is up to date, she's still with them.
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If she doesn't stick with Inc/Universal......WOW what a jumper.....if she is indeed no longer with them the only logical thing would be too go indie....honestly.....but if she stays with them, good.....
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If she doesn't stick with Inc/Universal......WOW what a jumper.....if she is indeed no longer with them the only logical thing would be too go indie....honestly.....but if she stays with them, good.....
I think going indie would be a suicide for her career, no offense. But at least she got SOME promotion, like when Nolita Fairytale was on the hills and ect. If shes indie there wont be any.
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Thats not true....tons of indie bands that run their own record labels get tv/radio play...if u ask me i just don't think vanessa has a good team...i don't think she has a team at all.......she's probably not a good artist to go indie since she doesn't really embrace the internet and the power that it has when it comes to promotiing your music FOR FREE...but if she did there would still be tons of profit coming in....you can sell hundreds of thousands of records on a major and make next to nothing....you can sell only thousands on your own imrint and make THE SAME if not more...
The Distrubution company does most of the work anyway...
Red Eye Distribution has 50/50 deals with all of the artist that they roster...and that is an amazing deal...actually theres probably nothing better. If an artist was to sale 20,000 copies @ 6.00 a CD(what the retailer would pay in bulk)....generally an artist would receive $60,000 on album sales alone. They also fund music videos for the artist, etc......
Theres tons of ways too look @ this....I just don't know if shes strong enough to go it alone...and I think that has a lot to do with the events of the last 2 years....
If Harmonium and H & T both 'flopped' in a sense I don't see what kind of material she could release that would get anyone elses' attention...unless she was to give in and completely change her sound and become something else....WHICH NONE OF US WOULD WANT.
It's not the labels fault....you can't make people buy records with tons of promotion...yes, it helps, but you can't make people buy something they don't want too......I think Vanessa has a strong dedicated fanbase and she should totally cater to them more because they might be the only ones buying the next record, or the one after that, etc......
Belive it or not there are bands that survive on a very small dedicated fanbase alone...they cater to them...and it works.
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Vanessa really has to decide how she wants to proceed, at this point. If Radiohead don't need a major label, she certainly doesn't. The majors really have done nothing for VC; don't forget that she was with A&M for years before BNN came out.
The business model of music has really changed. Major labels used to be able to offer worldwide distribution, which many indies could not. Now? Who cares. They also used to have their own studios in some cases. Now? People are getting decent sounds in little home independent studios.
A major artist no longer needs a major label to bankroll the making of an album or to get radio promotion.
When all is said and done, even after the labels are paid back all the money they have put up, they STILL OWN THE ALBUM MASTERS. This is fairly standard but cruel. Sad, but BNN, HARMONIUM and H&T are all in the grubby little hands of people that could not care less about VC, and make tons of money when the tracks end up on NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL BULLSH** VOL. 162.
It's a horrible, demeaning place that I have barely peered into, this biz, and I do wish the best for our V.
Dan/NS
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I really liked what Nutnlp and Nosticker wrote. Thank you !