Author Topic: An Important Political Issue for 20-30 Yr Olds...  (Read 6291 times)

PintOGuinness

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An Important Political Issue for 20-30 Yr Olds...
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2003, 09:04:54 am »
Quote from: "rosieposy87"
because we know that when we enter that hospital hurt we won't have to give our insurance number in order to get treated and we know that our operations will be carried out free of charge.


I had a blast reading about that black woman that needed her leg amputated and was told that she woud have to have a white prosthetic leg because that was all that was covered by the NHS. If she wanted one to match her skin color it would be 4000 pounds...  LOL   I do believe the healthcare system there is definitely a bit off as well... :)
-- Jason

Grakthis

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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2003, 11:39:02 am »
Quote from: "rosieposy87"
There is a lot of evidence to support it Andrew. And just because machines are being invented doesn't stop people from growing old. There is soon to be a collapse of government pensions here and the demand sure as hell isn't going down.


Rosie, if there is evidence for it then SHOW me and prove me wrong.

Yes, it is true that we have ONE big generation coming that is gonna distort things for a bit.

But once they are all dead and gone you will see retirement ages steadily declining.  It's a fact of life on Earth.  We will get more efficient at things.   AND the population is not growing on Earth anywhere near as fast as we are getting efficient at production.

People getting old has nothing to do with it.  It has to do with the fact that young people will easily be able to support the needs of the old due to efficiency in production.
---Andrew
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Grakthis

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An Important Political Issue for 20-30 Yr Olds...
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2003, 11:41:50 am »
Quote from: "rroo"
Problem is that you don't know when that 'someday' is. 20, 30, 80 years from now? In my opinion it's better to make plans now that eventually are useless than to sit back and in a few years time go like: 'Where are those machines? Helloo? I was promised some machines here!'

Other problem is that people just get older and older (partly caused by free drugs). But I look at it at the bright side..., suppose our generation lives on average 5 years longer than the previous generation and we can retire 2 years later, than we still 'gain' 3 years! In my opinion it's not that bad to work a little longer, because we live longer.


I agree completely with the first point.  We don't know when we will hit that super efficient point but i think it's still safe to assume that our generation will easily be able to support our parents when they retire.  We are more efficient, as a society, than our parents were.  We produce more, cheaper and better.  So even if we have less workers, we should still have enough to provide for them.
---Andrew
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rosieposy87

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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2003, 12:00:28 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"

Rosie, if there is evidence for it then SHOW me and prove me wrong.



Do you seriously want me to fish out my UK dependency ratio we worked out in geography!? That is buried under a huuge pile of papers. lol
"I'm all about the wordplay."

Grakthis

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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2003, 12:00:38 pm »
Quote from: "PintOGuinness"
This is where Andrew and I differ imperically in philosophy.  Currently in the US, the government acts as a wealth redistrubution system.  They feel they should act like Robin Hood.  Steal money from every hard working American (the "rich", and use it for programs like welfare and medicaid for lazy underachievers "the poor").


Oh please.  90% of the rich are not hard workers.  They just inherited it.  If they want to keep their riches, then they need to work to replace what the government takes.

And we can't rely on americans to donate money to charity and to the poor.  We all know that we just wont donate enough.

Also, it is an economically demonstrateable fact that without redistribution of wealth a GROSS proportion of the wealth would settle to the top (and I mean even worse than it does now) because the more money you have the more money you WILL have.  Also, the wealthy do NOT contribute the appropriate proportion of their wealth to charity.  The richest 90% do not contribute 90% of the charity donations.

So the worlds wealth would all sit in the bank accounts of the rich and would never get redistributed down to the poor and destitute.

And not all people on medicare or welfare or unemployment are lazy or underachievers.  Some of them are purely incapable of making a better life for themselves.

But frankly, if I choose NOT to work, I should STILL be able to subsist in todays society.  Subsitance should be a basic right of all humans, luxury should be what we work for.
---Andrew
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Grakthis

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An Important Political Issue for 20-30 Yr Olds...
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2003, 12:02:10 pm »
Quote from: "rosieposy87"
Do you seriously want me to fish out my UK dependency ratio we worked out in geography!? That is buried under a huuge pile of papers. lol


If you want me to change my opinion, then yes.  :wink:

why dependancy studies in geography?  Shouldn't that be sociology or something like that?
---Andrew
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rosieposy87

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« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2003, 12:18:05 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Quote from: "rosieposy87"
Do you seriously want me to fish out my UK dependency ratio we worked out in geography!? That is buried under a huuge pile of papers. lol


If you want me to change my opinion, then yes.  :wink:

why dependancy studies in geography?  Shouldn't that be sociology or something like that?
---Andrew


Geography here involves anthropological geography aswell. We study population pyramids and learn to analyse and discover reasons as to why whole sections may be missing etc. We also study management strategies for the modern world (sounds weird) and we did dependency ratios for the UK. In my Exam i had to write a 2 page essay on reasons as to why this has occured and to create pratical ways of solving the issue.
"I'm all about the wordplay."

rosieposy87

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« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2003, 12:27:04 pm »
Oh and Jason- i think calling the poor 'lazy underachievers' is just plain low. I do not think you are stupid enough to be oblivious to the cycle of poverty, i am actually very suprised you even made that comment.

 Why do the rich deserve to stay rich and the poor be ground into the floor? American society is based on the fact that you can work your way up to be anything- but the truth is that is only the case if you fit into a stereotypical box. It was you who said to me the other day society there was so very much based on class.
"I'm all about the wordplay."

Grakthis

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« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2003, 12:27:10 pm »
Quote from: "rosieposy87"
Geography here involves anthropological geography aswell. We study population pyramids and learn to analyse and discover reasons as to why whole sections may be missing etc. We also study management strategies for the modern world (sounds weird) and we did dependency ratios for the UK. In my Exam i had to write a 2 page essay on reasons as to why this has occured and to create pratical ways of solving the issue.


Oh my! That sounds SOOOOO much more interesting than our geography! I had to memorize a map of europe.  ugh.

Not like most of those countries are even THERE anymore.
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rosieposy87

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« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2003, 12:31:53 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Oh my! That sounds SOOOOO much more interesting than our geography!



However, learning how meanders are formed isn't as thrilling. lol
"I'm all about the wordplay."

PintOGuinness

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« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2003, 05:41:40 am »
Quote from: "rosieposy87"
Oh and Jason- i think calling the poor 'lazy underachievers' is just plain low. I do not think you are stupid enough to be oblivious to the cycle of poverty, i am actually very suprised you even made that comment.

 Why do the rich deserve to stay rich and the poor be ground into the floor? American society is based on the fact that you can work your way up to be anything- but the truth is that is only the case if you fit into a stereotypical box. It was you who said to me the other day society there was so very much based on class.


The reason I say that Rosie and the reason I don't think like Andrew is because right now the system does not work...  the current system promotes and rewards underachievement. There is no incentive for betterment.  No one is stuck in their situation.  Anyone can work their way into anything they want.  The problem here is we currently have a system that says don't work too hard because we don't reward real success, we tax it.  Hell we tax people when they DIE!?!  

And Andrew... 90% of the rich inherited their wealth??  Where did you get that statistic?  And I understand that it has been shown that if you take a group of "rich" people and a group of "poor" people...  and give them equal means... within a set amonut of time.. the rich would be rich again and the poor would be poor again.  I don't understand why the successful people should be penalized for that and the underachievers should just be allowed to steal a portion of thier money to clean up their mistakes...

Plain and simple, it is not the government's job to force morality.  That's the job of the churches and private organizations... It's interesting to see Decmocrats take such Anti-Religious stances on so many issues, but then be the forefront of "forced-tithing" by income redistribution to help the poor and destitute.
-- Jason

tylor2000

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« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2003, 08:25:45 am »
The problem is that both social programs and capitalism BOTH don't work.  The best we can do nowadays is to combine the two ideas in some desperate attempt to come to a solution, untill some day we either come up with better ideas or solutions OR come to the point where we have met up with Grakthis' fantastical future dream world. :D

tylor

Grakthis

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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2003, 05:31:41 am »
Quote from: "tylor2000"
The problem is that both social programs and capitalism BOTH don't work.  The best we can do nowadays is to combine the two ideas in some desperate attempt to come to a solution, untill some day we either come up with better ideas or solutions OR come to the point where we have met up with Grakthis' fantastical future dream world. :D

tylor


Capitalism DOES work.  It works PERFECTLY.  We just have yet to actually obtain perfect capitalism.  There is a proper mix of capitalism and social welfare that would work if we get there.

It's also interesting to note that socialism works PERFECTLY as well.  Except it goes against human nature and is impossible to implement.
---Andrew
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tylor2000

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« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2003, 09:15:27 am »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Quote from: "tylor2000"
The problem is that both social programs and capitalism BOTH don't work.  The best we can do nowadays is to combine the two ideas in some desperate attempt to come to a solution, untill some day we either come up with better ideas or solutions OR come to the point where we have met up with Grakthis' fantastical future dream world. :D

tylor


Capitalism DOES work.  It works PERFECTLY.  We just have yet to actually obtain perfect capitalism.  There is a proper mix of capitalism and social welfare that would work if we get there.

It's also interesting to note that socialism works PERFECTLY as well.  Except it goes against human nature and is impossible to implement.
---Andrew


Your own words are my argument against you.  Show me perfect capitalism or socialism.  Thank you very much.  The most perfect capitalism we have ever had occurred in the late 19 century and was called lasse-faire capitalism. That is capitalism for you.

I guess it depends what you mean by perfect. ;)

tylor

Grakthis

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« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2003, 11:06:58 am »
Quote

Your own words are my argument against you.  Show me perfect capitalism or socialism.  Thank you very much.  The most perfect capitalism we have ever had occurred in the late 19 century and was called lasse-faire capitalism. That is capitalism for you.

I guess it depends what you mean by perfect. ;)

tylor


What i mean is, because perfect capitalism is not possible, the US government must regulate markets on their own.  Because there are some neccesary goods and services that cannot be properly regulated by human controlled markets.  They just can't.  Humans are too decietful.  If you assume all people are honest, but greedy, the perfect capitalism is possible.  Too bad we can't assume that.

The late 19th century economics close to perfect capitalism.  we still had a ton of tarrifs and taxes on imports.  Also, I don't think Laissez-faire was ever really a policy in the US, was it?  Just in Great Britian.  Does England call itself a capitalist country?
---Andrew
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