Author Topic: McCain gets slammed!!!  (Read 54113 times)

Jophess

  • Keepin' secrets at midnight
  • *****
  • Posts: 3641
    • View Profile
    • Twitter
    • Email
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #120 on: September 13, 2007, 03:07:50 pm »
Quote from: "Logikal X"
Yeah i know this argument is reallllly messed up, im just trying to point out that saying just because homosexuals are human they should be allowed to marry is a very weak argument.   I could have also gone other routes such as murderers who carry no remorse, burglars etc.

Actually, it is a really good argument. Why should two consenting human beings not be allowed marriage?

Noelle, do you think that a straight marriage with no intent of reproduction should be allowed? What if one or both are incapable of reproduction? I know what you're trying to say, but it's still discrimination.
Joe

itsthefiveofus

  • You never thought it'd hurt so bad
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
    • View Profile
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #121 on: September 13, 2007, 03:15:04 pm »
Quote from: "Jophess"
Quote from: "Logikal X"
Yeah i know this argument is reallllly messed up, im just trying to point out that saying just because homosexuals are human they should be allowed to marry is a very weak argument.   I could have also gone other routes such as murderers who carry no remorse, burglars etc.

Actually, it is a really good argument. Why should two consenting human beings not be allowed marriage?

Noelle, do you think that a straight marriage with no intent of reproduction should be allowed? What if one or both are incapable of reproduction? I know what you're trying to say, but it's still discrimination.


totally agree

Current takes me out, what will be, will be. Floating on the sea, stars are watching me.

Logikal X

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
    • MSN Messenger - tqhx@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - tqhx
    • View Profile
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #122 on: September 14, 2007, 05:06:26 am »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
I am talking about two consenting adults...not an adult abusing a child.




Homosexuality is viewed as a sin/immoral by many religious people, so your opinion unfortunately isnt the opinion of everyone in this country.    Heck if you were in ancient greece and you said touching little boys is wrong you would probably be put in the arena with a lion.   Homosexuality is not highly regarded, its a sad fact as i actually agree with you that they are doing nothing wrong, but im willing to vouch that not so many others agree.  I agree with the age of consent laws etc though dont take my argument too far =)  



And Jophess, if youre best argument is "yes it is"  You shouldnt even bother posting.   I never said they shouldnt be allowed, i said that lots of people view homosexuality as wrong THUS why the law didnt just pass with flying colors?  MAYBE
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

NoelleNC

  • You aren't tryin'
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Noelle1822
    • View Profile
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #123 on: September 14, 2007, 05:43:35 am »
Quote from: "Jophess"
Quote from: "Logikal X"
Yeah i know this argument is reallllly messed up, im just trying to point out that saying just because homosexuals are human they should be allowed to marry is a very weak argument.   I could have also gone other routes such as murderers who carry no remorse, burglars etc.

Actually, it is a really good argument. Why should two consenting human beings not be allowed marriage?

Noelle, do you think that a straight marriage with no intent of reproduction should be allowed? What if one or both are incapable of reproduction? I know what you're trying to say, but it's still discrimination.


I address heterosexual couples who cannot reproduce and do not want to reproduce in great length in this thread. You must not have read all my posts. I don't blame you because there were a lot of them, but basically I explain why these couples still should be allowed to marry under my premise.

What is discrimination to you is the dilution of the implicit design of marriage to me.

I am not against the rights, the benefits and the need for as strong an emotional commitment for homosexuals, I am just against the expansion of the WORD itself to encompass not only the bond of a man and woman but that of two men or two women. This is because I think there is enough difference in the nature of the relationships that I find it actually disrespectful to them all to try and lump them all together as if they are the same.

And I'm not saying that marriage is better than whatever would be the denotation for the homosexual equivalent, just that they are different and I think they should be seen as different.

Difference does not equal inequality between things.

Grakthis

  • VCUBs
  • Keepin' secrets at midnight
  • *
  • Posts: 3983
  • Lord Andrew
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Grakthis
    • View Profile
    • http://www.grakthis.com
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #124 on: September 14, 2007, 08:08:26 am »
Quote from: "NoelleNC"
Also, there are laws and programs based on factors of birth (race/sex) anyway, as far as I know. I see no problem in telling anyone that they cannot marry bc their bond is not one of a man and a woman, and that they must use another word for their bond. For the life of me I don't see what is so "offensive" about that.


Actually, there aren't.  You cannot write a law that applies to one gender but not to another.  You cannot write a law that applies to one race and not another.

There are a list of things about which you cannot discriminate in laws.  Race, gender, religion... uh, I think other non-religious beliefs are on the list.

Quote from: "Noelle"
There is nothing more productive about two white people reproducing than any other pair of heterosexuals, so I don't see your logic here.


Actually, that's not necessarily true.  There are whole lists of genetic diseases that are more likely in people of African (the continent, not the race) descent than people of western european descent.

More importantly, we simply don't know if there are biological advantages to offspring produced from people of similar racial origin or not.  There might be.

What we do know is that we evolved that way in nature before sentience was developed, therefore, it must have been beneficial at some point, right?

And we know that some genetic stocks are more predisposed to intelligenec or physical prowess, so maybe we shouldn't allow marriages between people who have genetic diseases or who are dumb?

Because their offspring is less viable and beneficial than others?

Quote from: "Noelle"
You seem to imply that my scenario is unlaw-like because it follows some moral law instead of something logical or technical. In my opinion, however, it is very logical and technical and not about morality, spirituality, or the loaded meaning of the word "special". As a trait, heterosexuals reproduce.


Even if it follows a logical or technical law, that doesn't matter.

Like you could argue that a law based around eugenics is logical.  You could argue that weeding out the dump and the weak is beneficial, logically.  You can argue that freedom of speech makes the world more dangerous and that a government based on an enlightened dictatorship would be the most beneficial to our contry.

You can make a ton of "logical" arguments that go against the concept of human rights and freedom that this country is based on.

Just because the argument is "logcal" doesn't make it "a good basis for law."

Again, I am not opposed to the PEOPLE calling gay marriage whatever they want.  But the LAW cannot distinguish.
If you are reading this, you are probably on my ignore list.  Click here to return the favor

Wagella Wrote:Yay for Bigotry!!

---Andrew

Grakthis

  • VCUBs
  • Keepin' secrets at midnight
  • *
  • Posts: 3983
  • Lord Andrew
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Grakthis
    • View Profile
    • http://www.grakthis.com
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #125 on: September 14, 2007, 08:15:41 am »
Quote from: "Logikal X"
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
I am talking about two consenting adults...not an adult abusing a child.




Homosexuality is viewed as a sin/immoral by many religious people, so your opinion unfortunately isnt the opinion of everyone in this country.    Heck if you were in ancient greece and you said touching little boys is wrong you would probably be put in the arena with a lion.   Homosexuality is not highly regarded, its a sad fact as i actually agree with you that they are doing nothing wrong, but im willing to vouch that not so many others agree.  I agree with the age of consent laws etc though dont take my argument too far =)  



And Jophess, if youre best argument is "yes it is"  You shouldnt even bother posting.   I never said they shouldnt be allowed, i said that lots of people view homosexuality as wrong THUS why the law didnt just pass with flying colors?  MAYBE


Laws should not be based on the morality of the people.

If the majority of people think slavery is OK, do you think slavery should be legal?

Or do you believe the law has a job that is over and above the morality of the people it governs?
If you are reading this, you are probably on my ignore list.  Click here to return the favor

Wagella Wrote:Yay for Bigotry!!

---Andrew

NoelleNC

  • You aren't tryin'
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Noelle1822
    • View Profile
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #126 on: September 14, 2007, 08:54:53 am »
^ He's just explaining why, at this point in time, it hasn't seen much success... He's not arguing that it shouldn't be made legal BECAUSE of moral factors, just that those issues are part of what is holding it back now. I think he's been pretty clear about that.


Anyway Grak, I don't really feel like getting into biology and anthropology. I see how you threw in the Sick Cell Anemia reference, but I don't feel like getting into that debate.

I find there to be a significant difference between being able to create offspring, no matter what deficiencies two races mixing might create, and not being able to ever create offspring according to any of the laws of nature that exist by default of your sex relationships. You cannot equate a flawed something with an impossibilty, as I think you are trying to do.

Logikal X

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
    • MSN Messenger - tqhx@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - tqhx
    • View Profile
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #127 on: September 14, 2007, 09:03:04 am »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Quote from: "Logikal X"
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
I am talking about two consenting adults...not an adult abusing a child.




Homosexuality is viewed as a sin/immoral by many religious people, so your opinion unfortunately isnt the opinion of everyone in this country.    Heck if you were in ancient greece and you said touching little boys is wrong you would probably be put in the arena with a lion.   Homosexuality is not highly regarded, its a sad fact as i actually agree with you that they are doing nothing wrong, but im willing to vouch that not so many others agree.  I agree with the age of consent laws etc though dont take my argument too far =)  



And Jophess, if youre best argument is "yes it is"  You shouldnt even bother posting.   I never said they shouldnt be allowed, i said that lots of people view homosexuality as wrong THUS why the law didnt just pass with flying colors?  MAYBE


Laws should not be based on the morality of the people.

If the majority of people think slavery is OK, do you think slavery should be legal?

Or do you believe the law has a job that is over and above the morality of the people it governs?



Laws generally are based on the morality or general social acceptability of actions as far as ive seen.   Im saying that a lot of people view homosexuality as immoral/wrong and this is why i believe that they are now allowed to marry by law currently.   However as time increases and more and more people accept homosexuality, the trend of allowing them to marry becomes more plausible.   Could you imagine anyone trying to pass this law 50 years ago?

I never said anything about whether my beliefs as an individual have any effect, nor am insane enough to expect them to.   When the majority of people believed slavery was okay, it was legal.   Did everyone at that time believe it was ok?   Im sure they didnt.   Does the fact that enough people believe it to be ok make it ok?  I personally dont agree.  

I believe laws are more of a trend than anything else.   Things that werent viewed as bad have been deemed bad by the government, such as weed, and made illegal.   However newer laws have allowed it to be legal for medicinal purposes.   Do you think this means weed was good 50 years ago, bad 20 years ago, and ok if its for medical reasons today?
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

LimeTwister

  • Guest
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #128 on: September 14, 2007, 11:45:57 am »
Higher up men in ancient Greece did have sex with boys and male teens; however, it wasn't widely accepted.

Logikal X

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
    • MSN Messenger - tqhx@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - tqhx
    • View Profile
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #129 on: September 14, 2007, 12:10:08 pm »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
Higher up men in ancient Greece did have sex with boys and male teens; however, it wasn't widely accepted.


Maybe in Sparta only the higher up men did.  In Greece there were only a few cities that prohibited such relations.   It was more widely accepted across the culture as the most spiritual form of bonding.


The fact of the matter is homosexuality is NOT that widely accepted.  

I will continue to make the point that i have no problem personally with it, nor allowing them to marry.  I dont want anyone thinking im some anti-gay asshole =)   Im just well aware of plenty of people, for religious reasons and other, that are against it, or view it as a sin.
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

Grakthis

  • VCUBs
  • Keepin' secrets at midnight
  • *
  • Posts: 3983
  • Lord Andrew
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Grakthis
    • View Profile
    • http://www.grakthis.com
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #130 on: September 14, 2007, 12:57:54 pm »
Quote from: "NoelleNC"
^ He's just explaining why, at this point in time, it hasn't seen much success... He's not arguing that it shouldn't be made legal BECAUSE of moral factors, just that those issues are part of what is holding it back now. I think he's been pretty clear about that.


Anyway Grak, I don't really feel like getting into biology and anthropology. I see how you threw in the Sick Cell Anemia reference, but I don't feel like getting into that debate.

I find there to be a significant difference between being able to create offspring, no matter what deficiencies two races mixing might create, and not being able to ever create offspring according to any of the laws of nature that exist by default of your sex relationships. You cannot equate a flawed something with an impossibilty, as I think you are trying to do.


Again, if we found a race of humans who could not mate with another race of humans to the point where we actually had speciation of humanity would you support not calling their relationship marriage?

Also, sickle cell anemia.  It refers to the shape of the cell (like a sickle).  Not sick cell.
If you are reading this, you are probably on my ignore list.  Click here to return the favor

Wagella Wrote:Yay for Bigotry!!

---Andrew

Grakthis

  • VCUBs
  • Keepin' secrets at midnight
  • *
  • Posts: 3983
  • Lord Andrew
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Grakthis
    • View Profile
    • http://www.grakthis.com
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #131 on: September 14, 2007, 12:59:52 pm »
Quote from: "Logikal X"
Laws generally are based on the morality or general social acceptability of actions as far as ive seen.   Im saying that a lot of people view homosexuality as immoral/wrong and this is why i believe that they are now allowed to marry by law currently.   However as time increases and more and more people accept homosexuality, the trend of allowing them to marry becomes more plausible.   Could you imagine anyone trying to pass this law 50 years ago?

I never said anything about whether my beliefs as an individual have any effect, nor am insane enough to expect them to.   When the majority of people believed slavery was okay, it was legal.   Did everyone at that time believe it was ok?   Im sure they didnt.   Does the fact that enough people believe it to be ok make it ok?  I personally dont agree.  

I believe laws are more of a trend than anything else.   Things that werent viewed as bad have been deemed bad by the government, such as weed, and made illegal.   However newer laws have allowed it to be legal for medicinal purposes.   Do you think this means weed was good 50 years ago, bad 20 years ago, and ok if its for medical reasons today?


You're right.  Many laws ARE based on popular opinions.

But that's not what I asked.  I asked if they SHOULD BE.
If you are reading this, you are probably on my ignore list.  Click here to return the favor

Wagella Wrote:Yay for Bigotry!!

---Andrew

NoelleNC

  • You aren't tryin'
  • *****
  • Posts: 860
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Noelle1822
    • View Profile
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #132 on: September 14, 2007, 02:08:09 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Quote from: "NoelleNC"
^ He's just explaining why, at this point in time, it hasn't seen much success... He's not arguing that it shouldn't be made legal BECAUSE of moral factors, just that those issues are part of what is holding it back now. I think he's been pretty clear about that.


Anyway Grak, I don't really feel like getting into biology and anthropology. I see how you threw in the Sick Cell Anemia reference, but I don't feel like getting into that debate.

I find there to be a significant difference between being able to create offspring, no matter what deficiencies two races mixing might create, and not being able to ever create offspring according to any of the laws of nature that exist by default of your sex relationships. You cannot equate a flawed something with an impossibilty, as I think you are trying to do.


Again, if we found a race of humans who could not mate with another race of humans to the point where we actually had speciation of humanity would you support not calling their relationship marriage?

Also, sickle cell anemia.  It refers to the shape of the cell (like a sickle).  Not sick cell.


^ I know it's sickle cell... I just am more used to writing the word sick and I type fast, it came out wrong. I know what it is and I'm not stupid. Thanks.

Um, actually, if two races of humans branched off to the point where they couldn't reproduce at all, no chance, then we can talk about it. Because honestly that is so far into WHAT IF that it's not even worth comparing at this point.

Logikal X

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
    • MSN Messenger - tqhx@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - tqhx
    • View Profile
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #133 on: September 14, 2007, 02:23:16 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"


You're right.  Many laws ARE based on popular opinions.

But that's not what I asked.  I asked if they SHOULD BE.



Helllll no.
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

charmedguy18

  • Guest
McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #134 on: September 14, 2007, 03:31:23 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"


You're right.  Many laws ARE based on popular opinions.

But that's not what I asked.  I asked if they SHOULD BE.

Good point. That's hard.