Author Topic: I miss political threads . . .  (Read 12616 times)

Logikal X

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« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2003, 12:49:59 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
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Shocking, I know.   :wink:
---Andrew


That's right.


ELEPHANTS WITH POPSICLES ARE EVVERRYYWHHEEERRE


Speaking of drug usage....
---Andrew




Actually this insanity is caused by the fact that my most important server DIED  :evil:  (cheapass barracuda scsi drives)

when i use drugs i see puppies and teddy bears, anything else is completely unacceptable :mrgreen:
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But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

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« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2003, 12:51:56 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"
Here's my point on the issue: I don't want another substance to be out there that can seriously hamper someone's abilities of driving safely.  I already live in fear that a drunk driver might take mine or one of my loved ones life, please don't make me live in fear that someone that's high is going to do it if the drunk driver doesn't get there first.  Keep it illegal.


Here's a lesson in both Economics and human psychology.  Making drugs illegal does nothing but raise the prices of the drugs.  This does reduce some of the demand, but the people who are gonna do drugs and then do something stupid couldn't careless if it is or is not illegal and the addicts will find ways to get the money for them.  By causing the price to go up, you force people to commit crimes to get their fix.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for the US government to remove the SUPPLY of drugs.  When there is a demand, SOMEONE will supply.  It's the economic law our country is built on.

If you legalize drugs then the gov't can TAX them, regulate prices and set age limits.  Which makes it both cheaper and easier to have the exact same affect as the "war on drugs".  Actually, you get a better affect because you drive the illegal shady dealers out of business and clean up a lot of the crime that is associated with those street corner dealers.

Not to mention that the people who are going to do drugs and then drive are the same people who drink and then drive.  You think there are people out there who do coke but WON'T drink alcohol?!?  Come on.  So you are NOT increasing the total number of people driving under the influence of some drug by legalizing ANYTHING.
---Andrew


I'm sorry, I still disagree.  

I do not give a rats ass about the economics of this issue.
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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2003, 12:53:40 pm »
Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"


I'm sorry, I still disagree.  

I do not give a rats ass about the economics of this issue.




Thats fine, and everyone who gets high will continue to drive under the influence with complete knowledge that a breathalyzer for marijuana really cant exist since hey, its illegal :wink:
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

Grakthis

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« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2003, 01:01:44 pm »
Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan

I'm sorry, I still disagree.  

I do not give a rats ass about the economics of this issue.


Well now... THAT'S a mature stance.

"I don't care what you say, I'm not listening, nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah".

Entertainment/Recreational Drugs WILL be legalized in the US eventually.  It's just a question of time.  Why, you ask? Because there is NO logical reason for them NOT to be.  None.  Zero.  All of them have been debunked.  Allowing alcohol and tobacco and not other drugs is just silly.

Human nature requires that human societies will move in specific directions, given enough time, till they eventually reach an equilibrium point.  So unless human nature changes, you should start getting used to the idea of being able to buy a pack of mary-jane at your local walmart.  But you might get carded for it.
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« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2003, 01:53:07 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan

I'm sorry, I still disagree.  

I do not give a rats ass about the economics of this issue.


Well now... THAT'S a mature stance.

"I don't care what you say, I'm not listening, nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah".

Entertainment/Recreational Drugs WILL be legalized in the US eventually.  It's just a question of time.  Why, you ask? Because there is NO logical reason for them NOT to be.  None.  Zero.  All of them have been debunked.  Allowing alcohol and tobacco and not other drugs is just silly.

Human nature requires that human societies will move in specific directions, given enough time, till they eventually reach an equilibrium point.  So unless human nature changes, you should start getting used to the idea of being able to buy a pack of mary-jane at your local walmart.  But you might get carded for it.
---Andrew


That's far from what I said.  Simply put: The economics of this issue are of NO importance to me.  Wow!  The government can tax it?!  BIG FUCKING DEAL.  Should we now legalize conspiracy to committ murder, but put a nice pretty 6% tax on the amount that you pay the person to do it?!  Do NOT try to argue the money issue... that's outrageously asinine.  This is NOT about money.

You have a way of taking someone's words, and then putting them on the spin cycle to bash their argument.
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« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2003, 07:38:13 pm »
Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"
That's far from what I said.


Then maybe you should do a better job of clarifying what you mean.  If you say something and it gets misinterpreted, it's YOUR fault for not properly wording it, not the person who didn't understand it.

Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"
Simply put: The economics of this issue are of NO importance to me.  Wow!  The government can tax it?!  BIG FUCKING DEAL.  Should we now legalize conspiracy to committ murder, but put a nice pretty 6% tax on the amount that you pay the person to do it?!  Do NOT try to argue the money issue... that's outrageously asinine.  This is NOT about money.


Ah.  But you are wrong here my friend.  See, it IS significant that the gov't can tax it.  You know why?  Instead of spending umpteen billion dollars on fighting drugs, they instead MAKE X billion dollars taxing and regulating it.  So thats an X+Umpteen billion dollar turnaround.  THat money has to go somewhere, amiright?  So take that money and spend it on education and treatment.  Reduce the DEMAND for the drugs.  Make them less "sexy" by making them legal.

Also, MONEY is the heart of demand in a capitalist (or semi-capitalist) economy.  People only want something if they can get it at or below a specific price.  So to say it's not about MONEY is just being ignorant of the real issues.  It's about the demand for drugs in the US and what the war on drugs is doing to affect that.  Because as I stated earlier, if there is a demand, SOMEONE will supply.

Unless you are gonna try and tell me you are against the legalization of drugs for moral or religious reasons?  Because we are not debating weather or not taking drugs is "morally" or "ethically" right.  We are debating weather or not it should be legalized.  The two are completely different issues.

And as for the conspiracy to commit murder comment, the difference between the two is that murder harms another person DIRECTLY.  Taking drugs DOES NOT.  Taking drugs irresponsibly might... but driving irresponsibly or handling your gun irresponsibly might hurt another person as well.  And it's not illegal to own a gun or drive a car, now is it?  We just put restrictions on them.  An adult of sound mind should be allowed to poison his or her own body however he or she sees fit and the gov't has no right to stop them.  Do you think abortion should be legal?  If so then you understand the root of this already: its my body, don't tell me what I cannot do with it.

Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"
You have a way of taking someone's words, and then putting them on the spin cycle to bash their argument.


You have a way of stating things too simplistically and expecting other people to read into it.  Make your assertions clear and you won't give me any room to REINTERPRET (or "spin") the things you say.
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« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2003, 07:29:36 am »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Ah.  But you are wrong here my friend.  See, it IS significant that the gov't can tax it.  You know why?  Instead of spending umpteen billion dollars on fighting drugs, they instead MAKE X billion dollars taxing and regulating it.  So thats an X+Umpteen billion dollar turnaround.  THat money has to go somewhere, amiright?  So take that money and spend it on education and treatment.  Reduce the DEMAND for the drugs.  Make them less "sexy" by making them legal.

Also, MONEY is the heart of demand in a capitalist (or semi-capitalist) economy.  People only want something if they can get it at or below a specific price.  So to say it's not about MONEY is just being ignorant of the real issues.  It's about the demand for drugs in the US and what the war on drugs is doing to affect that.  Because as I stated earlier, if there is a demand, SOMEONE will supply.---Andrew


ONCE AGAIN.

If your main argument is going to be that the United States government can make money off of legalizing drugs, that is sad.  

My words have been very simple to figure out.  I don't give a shit about the economics of the issue... HOW IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?  

The fact remains that marijuana, cocaine, heroin, LSD, etc. etc. DO put others at risk.  All of the above mentioned SERIOUSLY hamper one's ability to think or to express any sense of reason.  My mother's an ER nurse--you'd be shocked to hear how often a guy high off of drugs shoots a guy but can't remember it the next day.  

And we won't even get into the effects it has on a person with withdrawals and what the crimes they will committ to get that drug.  

Your argument that drugs don't cause harm to other people can be disproven by the sheer number of people who get killed/injured/harmed by people who are so fucked up they don't even remember it.  

This country should NOT legalize something that can fuck with your mind so much, you have no sense of reason and that some psychologists have said almost makes you legally insane.

I think a LOT of the people are arguing for legalized drugs are thinking more of themselves than the general public.
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Grakthis

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« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2003, 07:59:38 am »
Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"

ONCE AGAIN.

If your main argument is going to be that the United States government can make money off of legalizing drugs, that is sad.  

My words have been very simple to figure out.  I don't give a shit about the economics of the issue... HOW IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?  


You know... sometimes you seem capable of simple human reasoning and sometimes you don't.  Maybe I made the mistake of assuming you were more educated then you actually are.

Saying you don't care about the economics of the issue is like saying "I dont care about the issue".  Economics is a LARGE part of the issue since, at it's heart, economics is a study of human behavior.  If you want to have an argument about morality, say so, because as I said previously, that's an entirely different discussion.  This discussion is about legalizing drugs in the semi-capitalist US government and how people will respond to it.  Which is centrally a discussion of cost benefits and human behavior.  If you don't realize this, then step out of the discussion, cause you don't know enough to participate.

Now that we have THAT out of the way....

The point isn't MAKING money.  The point is two-fold; it's about how people will react to a price change AND how the government will SPEND the money.  For example,  spending the money on treatment and hospitals.  Legalizing it will not increase drug usage significantly, it will increase the QUALITY (thereby reducing a lot of the risk.... such as people cutting cocaine with drano) and increase education and awareness.

Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"
The fact remains that marijuana, cocaine, heroin, LSD, etc. etc. DO put others at risk.  All of the above mentioned SERIOUSLY hamper one's ability to think or to express any sense of reason.  My mother's an ER nurse--you'd be shocked to hear how often a guy high off of drugs shoots a guy but can't remember it the next day.


People can get drunk and do the same thing.  And spend the rest of their lives in jail.  As you said, it happens NOW.  So making it criminal isn't preventing the problem, now is it?  You said so yourself; your mom is an ER Nurse and she sees it "often".  So I don't see your argument here.

Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"
And we won't even get into the effects it has on a person with withdrawals and what the crimes they will committ to get that drug.


I already adressed this issue.  By legalizing it, it becomes cheaper, more readily available and you remove this as an issue.  When was the last time you saw someone commit murder for a pack of smokes?  Are you gonna tell me it's because tobacco isn't as addictive?

Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"
Your argument that drugs don't cause harm to other people can be disproven by the sheer number of people who get killed/injured/harmed by people who are so fucked up they don't even remember it.


I never said that drugs don't cause harm.  I never even IMPLIED this.  I don't know where you got this from.

My argument is that a person should be allowed to RESPONSIBLY damage their own bodies.  It's the job of the gov't to insure that it is done responsibly but not to stop them.  It would also be likely that some of this burden would be placed on the drug manufacturers, much like tobacco and alcohol companies.  If I want to manufacture a cocaine derivative then I have to spend X amount of my profits on treatment and education.  If i am a drug store and I want to sell this derivative, I need to have the proper licenses and pay the proper fees.

Also, by regulating the drugs the gov't can CONTROL how strong they are and exactly what effects they have on people.  If you go out on the street right now and by X from someone, the odds are you are getting X cut with cocaine.  Most people don't know this.  I've talked to DOZENS of kids who think X is a "safe" drug.  You also might be getting X cut with something relatively harmless like codine or tylenol.  You just don't know.  Removing this element of danger seems smart to me.

Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"
This country should NOT legalize something that can fuck with your mind so much, you have no sense of reason and that some psychologists have said almost makes you legally insane.

I think a LOT of the people are arguing for legalized drugs are thinking more of themselves than the general public.


As I've said before, Alcohol can have the exact same effect on people.  For that matter, sniffing paint thinner can too.  I don't see your argument here.

You seem to be arguing based on emotion and not ration.  Realize that RIGHT NOW, with the drugs ILLEGAL, all of these bad things are STILL HAPPENING.

We aren't STOPPING people from doing drugs or stopping them from commiting these crimes.  Making it legal wont change that.

Let me REEMPHASIZE something; DRUGS ARE BAD.  People SHOULD NOT do drugs.  They harm your body in irreprable ways for short term benefits.  That said... if I know the reprecussions of taking drugs then i should have the option of legally ignoring them.  The law shouldn't force people to do the "smart thing".  If I want to be dumb, that's my choice.

If you have something intelligent to contribute, please do so.  But the fact of the matter is, there are only two logical stances on "drugs" in the US.  Either make them all illegal (including alcohol and tobacco) or make them all legal.  Making some legal and others not is inconsistency of the worst kind.
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Logikal X

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« Reply #38 on: July 08, 2003, 08:01:15 am »
Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"


The fact remains that marijuana, cocaine, heroin, LSD, etc. etc. DO put others at risk.  .



lmao!!!  My mom is a nurse too, and she doesnt think marijuana is so bad.  I can remember everything i have ever done when under the unfluence of it, well maybe not everything since it was when i was younger and years make you forget things,...but never once did i hurt someone.  You are just a stubborn person lacking the open mind to see that a reasonably large amount of people smoke marijuana, it can be used medically to treat glaucoma and is better for headaches than tylenol, it eases the side effects of chemo on people with cancer.  We could easily produce enough crops to fuel every vehicle in the world thus creating cars that burn more cleanly and efficiently while preserving our natural resources.  It also can be used to make paper saving countless trees...The side products of creating fuel from hemp makes an extremely good meal for livestock.  There is countless uses for the actual plants while alcohol....it can fuel cars that are dangerously explosive, annnd get people really drunk!!
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

Grakthis

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« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2003, 09:12:26 am »
Quote from: "Logikal X"
....it can fuel cars that are dangerously explosive, annnd get people really drunk!!


Well... there is some myth to the organic fuel ideas.  It would basically be an ethanol synthesis which we can make from grains and woods already.  The major problem being that it takes a large amount to power a car, it doesn't provide quick bursts which makes accelerating a bitch AND it requires a BIG powertrain.

That being said.... ethanol distilled from Hemp can power cards with low emissions.  However, it would still release carbon as part of the combustion process which is still less efficient than hydrogen.

I agree with pretty much everything else you said.  I personally don't do ANY illegal drugs, but I strongly support other people's right to smoke marijuana, especially for medical reasons.  Marijuana usage is no worse than alcohol.
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« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2003, 10:09:52 am »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Quote from: "Logikal X"
....it can fuel cars that are dangerously explosive, annnd get people really drunk!!


Well... there is some myth to the organic fuel ideas.  It would basically be an ethanol synthesis which we can make from grains and woods already.  The major problem being that it takes a large amount to power a car, it doesn't provide quick bursts which makes accelerating a bitch AND it requires a BIG powertrain.

That being said.... ethanol distilled from Hemp can power cards with low emissions.  However, it would still release carbon as part of the combustion process which is still less efficient than hydrogen.

I agree with pretty much everything else you said.  I personally don't do ANY illegal drugs, but I strongly support other people's right to smoke marijuana, especially for medical reasons.  Marijuana usage is no worse than alcohol.
---Andrew



well if we get the livestock REALLY goin we could always make methanol :wink:

and if that doesnt provide a quick enough burst, at least it will clear a room
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But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

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« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2003, 10:42:00 am »
Quote from: "Logikal X"
Quote from: "GSUCarltonFan"


The fact remains that marijuana, cocaine, heroin, LSD, etc. etc. DO put others at risk.  .



You are just a stubborn person lacking the open mind to see that a reasonably large amount of people smoke marijuana, it can be used medically to treat glaucoma and is better for headaches than tylenol, it eases the side effects of chemo on people with cancer.  


No, I'm a proponent of legalizing marijuana for medicinal useses WITH a doctor's consent.  The only thing I would like to add to the California (and any other state that wishes) statute is that I think the surgeon general of the state should appoint only certain doctors that are able to write a prescription for it.  Right now there are doctors running around writing prescriptions for anyone who wants one.

Let me clarify.  I do not gives a rats ass of the economics and how much money we make/lose on the drug trade or how much money we would make/lose by legalizing it.  Has it gotten to the point now that if we lose money on something that people will do anyway, that we should legalize it?  I would surely hope not.  There are things that this country is going to lose money on, and that people will want to do, that the government should be able to control.

My stance on the issue is that legalizing certain drugs (I'll exclude marijuana because I agree marijuana a well substantiated case could be made for that being as weak or weaker than alcohol or tobacco) puts at risk many others.  That's a risk I am not willing to take--no matter how much money this country loses fighting the drug war every year.

EDIT:  In the end, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
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« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2003, 10:42:38 am »
I said useses.  Haha
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« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2003, 10:45:49 am »
SOme may find it odd that I have stayed silent on this.. but to be perfectly honest.. Andrew has said almost 100% word for word everythign that I would have said.

The war on drugs is a waste of government resources. It has proved to accomplish absolutely nothing!  By decriminalizing drug use the same money can be used on treatment and education... but you could take the power away fromt he crime lords and bring the drugs out of the darkness and take the power away from the criminals...  this would seriously clean up the streets... something EVERY person wants to see...

Whatever you believe...  we can all agree... what we're doing now IS NOT working... we should definitely try SOMETHING else...
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« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2003, 11:09:49 am »
We could argue this one all day.

And I'll be the first to admit that I have no numbers to back my claims, no hard proof.

It's just how I was raised and from what I see as my rational thinking.  

I have done no research on the issue, and if I had... MAYBE (be it a small chance) I would have come to a different conclusion.  This issue isn't one of my trademark land posts that I argue many times over with my philosophical thinking buds.

I'm much more of a constituition thinker.  Hence the fact I want to go into Constitutional Law.

So I'm putting this one to rest.
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