Religious Debate o.O

[Blake]

Oh its all so confusing!

Definatly, and I am one to be easily confused.  :oops:

[Grakthis]

Oh i am SO confused. I have to write 3000 words on this! *shakes fist* Bloody philosophy!

Later religious theologians propsed new definitions for God's "omnipotence" that were intended to clear all of this up, but really failed badly.  Look into St. Augustine.  I think he did some writing on the topic......

I had a GREAT debate about this on another MB, I should dig up that thread and post some of it here....

[PIBby]

Okay, according to "The Bible" "God" is a "fair and just god." How in the world can He claim to be fair with a world like this.

There are mentally ill people, rich people, poor people, smart people, stupid people, good looking people, ugly people, annoying people, "cool" people, and so on.

How can some people be rich, smart, "cool", good looking, and all the good stuff, when there are mentally and physically ill people who live, but don't get to live life?

I mean come on, we all know those perfect people. And we've seen hobo's and mentally ill people, atleast most of us should have. Do they look like their enjoying life?

You can't seriously say yes, because you know your lying if you do.

 Whose fault is it if someone is poor? HUH? It's YOUR fault for complaining about the poverty in our world and not doing a damn thing about it, and it's the poor person's fault. YOURS more than anyones. What, do you expect God to come down and say, "Here, poor person, I'm sorry you're poor, here's some money, go buy a house, clean up, get a job." No He's not going to do that. He's TESTING us to see how we react in that situation. See?

I mean I rambel like crazy, and I didn't include everything I've wanted in there, but that makes a point I hope.

My next point: Predeterminded Fait. (Sorry I'm not a great speller)

"The Bible" says that were not stringed puppets, moved by what He says to do. Supposivly we have free choices to do as we please.

. . . thus it's your fault if you die of a drug overdose, not Gods. Whose choice was it to use herion? (Using examples, evidently.)

"The Bible" also says that "God" knows exactly what we are going to do before we do it.

If "God" knows what were going to be doing before we do it, what's the point? Why live, why do what is known to be done? Really it's already done.

How much f*cking fun would that be?

I mean if He knows what were going to do, before we do it, he supposivly knows what I'm going to type after this and what it will say, and what I will misspell and everything. The only reason I am still typing this is so you can read it.

I see no point to life now either, I think it is idiotic that "God created us" now. Because He knows what were going to do, why would He create us?

To carry on His word. Everything happens for a reason, I'm surprised you haven't figured that out by now.

I mean, take this crappy example: You see someone get hit by a car, you watch someone else call 911 on their cell phone. Do you call also? No because they have already done it, you know what is going to happen, and you calling will not make the ambulance come any faster.

I know I'm really rambling and my examples and stuff make sense to me, but I've probably flipped out everyone,  :?

For any of you who do understand though...I'd like to hear what you think. What your religious views and such are too...

While I'm at this...I've decided to "lie low" for a while. I'm having one of those depressing type times like I used to have frequently, and so I start acting quit weird when it happens, so forgive me now for being stupid and ignorant in anyway. I already know I'm a moron.

It's not that I'm leaving the board, or anything, but I'm tired of the way I'm living and the things I do time after time, so I'll be mostly reading posts, and if I feel the need, I'll reply.

I'll be on AIM, but I might not respond, I'm just not having a good period in my "life." So please understand me.

Thank you everyone for your kindness and understanding ahead of time...

[D]

I hope you don't mind I capitalized your references to God, respect didn't hurt anyone.

[PIBby]

Now ORGANIZED religion OFTEN is a crutch for people who aren't strong enough to support their own faith and needs the agreement of others to help them.  Because, to be honest, how many people do you know who are part of an organized religion that actually agree 100% with the teachings of that religion?  So if you don't agree, then why be a part of it?

Everything needs a foundation . . . Honest to God, I'd be clueless as shit if I hadn't been raised Catholic. That's just me, though.

PS I hope all the Atheists don't celebrate Christmas.

[Grakthis]

Everything needs a foundation . . . Honest to God, I'd be clueless as hit if I hadn't been raised Catholic. That's just me, though.quote]

 8O

That implies that you aren't clueless now  :wink:

[PIBby]

Satan!

[Grakthis]

Satan!

He had to run out to the store.... I'm just his secretary  :wink:

[kev222]

Daniel, i think you are asking the wrong questions.  The better question is, if God knows EVERYTHING then he also knows every choice HE will (has already?) make.  Therefore, can God change his mind?  The universal "omnipotence means he can do anything that is not a logical impossibility" theological statement tries to fill this in but it falls short IMHO.

My favorite philisophical question (ala Homer Simpson):  Could God make a burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it?  :wink:

As much as it pains me to disagree with anything Homer Simpson says,

Challenge: Can God heat a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it?
Response: Yes, because God is omnipotent.
Challenge: In that case God isn't omnipotent because he can't eat a sufficiently hot burrito
Response: Yes He can, because God is omnipotent.
Challenge: How can God do both?
Response: Because God is omnipotent

Why should God be bound by the laws of logic He instigated for His creation any more than he should be bound by His own natural laws of science?

Somebody might make the argument that God couldn't have made the universe from nothing because it violates the law of conservation of mass-energy. Obviously this argument only applies to a God bound by His own created laws. As the Christian God does fit into this definition domain, the argument is irrelevant to the God of the bible.

In the same way, the laws of logic (Non-Contradiction, Excluded Middle, etc.) are based on observations we have made within creation. For example, it is never observed that an object is both hot and cold at the same time. Any argument based on these laws falls into the same irrelevancy as the previous argument when applied directly to the omnipotent God of the bible.

-Kev

[rosieposy87]

Okay, according to "The Bible" "God" is a "fair and just god." How in the world can He claim to be fair with a world like this.

There are mentally ill people, rich people, poor people, smart people, stupid people, good looking people, ugly people, annoying people, "cool" people, and so on.

How can some people be rich, smart, "cool", good looking, and all the good stuff, when there are mentally and physically ill people who live, but don't get to live life?

I mean come on, we all know those perfect people. And we've seen hobo's and mentally ill people, atleast most of us should have. Do they look like their enjoying life?

You can't seriously say yes, because you know your lying if you do.

 Whose fault is it if someone is poor? HUH? It's YOUR fault for complaining about the poverty in our world and not doing a damn thing about it, and it's the poor person's fault. YOURS more than anyones. What, do you expect God to come down and say, "Here, poor person, I'm sorry you're poor, here's some money, go buy a house, clean up, get a job." No He's not going to do that. He's TESTING us to see how we react in that situation. See?

Actually i think you're wrong on this one. Many people, within reason can go out and find themself a job if they are unemployed. Ever stop to think that maybe there weren't any jobs? This theory follows along the lines of the 'American Dream'- that you can achieve anything no matter what your background. But, as i have argued with Jason many a time, you can only achieve that dream if you fit into a set framework and stereotype.

  Say your dad owns a factory, but pays his workers pittence- are they poor because its their fault? No, they're poor because your dad pays them pittence. And there's nothing they can do about it in these situations, i think you need to take a long hard look at the reasons why people are poor- and it may be mainly because the western world has stopped others from becoming rich.

I hope you don't mind I capitalized your references to God, respect didn't hurt anyone.

Yes, a little respect for Daniel's views never hurt anyone either.

[Grakthis]

Why should God be bound by the laws of logic He instigated for His creation any more than he should be bound by His own natural laws of science?

Your statement is a complete impossibility.  COMPLETE.  If God CAN eat the burrito, then he didn't make it hot enough.

You're falling back on the generic answer of "We are mortal and we can't understand God"... which is fine, but it's a cop out.  It's not an answer, it's what religious people say when they don't have an answer.

Somebody might make the argument that God couldn't have made the universe from nothing because it violates the law of conservation of mass-energy. Obviously this argument only applies to a God bound by His own created laws. As the Christian God does fit into this definition domain, the argument is irrelevant to the God of the bible.

In the same way, the laws of logic (Non-Contradiction, Excluded Middle, etc.) are based on observations we have made within creation. For example, it is never observed that an object is both hot and cold at the same time. Any argument based on these laws falls into the same irrelevancy as the previous argument when applied directly to the omnipotent God of the bible.

Logic is not a property of observation.  We didn't obtain logic via induction the way we obtained the rules of science.  Logic isn't based on observation, it is based on the human language.  Even if we had no concept of what Hot and Cold are, if we know they are both measures of heat then we know an object cannot be both at the same time (relative to the same starting point).

The rules of science, by their very nature, CAN BE BROKEN.  If they can't, then they aren't science (See Popper for clarification).  Which is why it is acceptable for God to be able to break the rules of science.

Logic is not a scientific principle, it is a thought process.  If a=b and b=c then a=c.  I don't care if you are or aren't God.  This is a fact of logic.  if a!=c then either a!=b or b!=c.

Now, don't get me wrong Kev.  Feel free to use the "We can't understand it because he is God" line.  But realize that it isn't an answer and is only a cop out.  Whenever science says "the answer is there, we just haven't found it yet" creationists jump all over it.  I think religion should be held to the same standard.

[jlmusicchick]

Whose fault is it if someone is poor? HUH? It's YOUR fault for complaining about the poverty in our world and not doing a damn thing about it, and it's the poor person's fault. YOURS more than anyones. What, do you expect God to come down and say, "Here, poor person, I'm sorry you're poor, here's some money, go buy a house, clean up, get a job." No He's not going to do that. He's TESTING us to see how we react in that situation. See?

Actually i think you're wrong on this one. Many people, within reason can go out and find themself a job if they are unemployed. Ever stop to think that maybe there weren't any jobs? This theory follows along the lines of the 'American Dream'- that you can achieve anything no matter what your background. But, as i have argued with Jason many a time, you can only achieve that dream if you fit into a set framework and stereotype.

  Say your dad owns a factory, but pays his workers pittence- are they poor because its their fault? No, they're poor because your dad pays them pittence. And there's nothing they can do about it in these situations, i think you need to take a long hard look at the reasons why people are poor- and it may be mainly because the western world has stopped others from becoming rich.

wow, i was going to post practically the same thing. In my soc/psyc class we just finished talking about the poorest cities in America, and I got East St. Louis to research. Most of the people there don't have a job because there are less jobs available than there are people in the city. social mobility is practically impossible. Most of the people there don't have enough money to go somewhere else. Their education system is poor, their schools are practically falling apart, there's open sewage everywhere, their own mayer blames them for these conditions....all these factors play an important role on the reality that these people probably will never be anything more than poor. Is it their fault? ...I'd have to say no.

I see what your saying about people not doing enough to help the poor, and I do agree with you (CeCe) on that one. People should do more. But just because they don't doesn't mean it's the poor person's fault.

[tricia]

See, the problem with saying "God isn't fair because look how people suffer" is that you aren't taking into account the cause of the suffering.  According to the Bible, God created everything to be perfect.  It wasn't until sin entered the world, that everything went to hell...literally and figuratively.  It is the fault of Satan, Adam, and Eve (your choice of combinations...I lean towards Adam...BWAHAHAHAHA ) that sin entered the world.  God told them they had the choice to do what they wanted.  They chose to eat from the tree.  They broke the rules...knowingly.  Therefore it is man's own fault that he suffers.  God doesn't look down on someone from Heaven and say "hmm...Bob...you suck *ZAP* now you're poor and can't have a house, or a job, or a family, or food".  I know that Christianity teaches that God is fair...He doesn't smite people just for the fun of it.  The test of life is that you will still have faith in Him no matter what comes your way.  The bad things happen because of the sinful nature of man, not the sadistic will of God.  

If that didn't make sense...too bad.  I'm tired.

[Grakthis]

According to the Bible, God created everything to be perfect.  It wasn't until sin entered the world, that everything went to hell...literally and figuratively.  It is the fault of Satan, Adam, and Eve (your choice of combinations...I lean towards Adam...BWAHAHAHAHA ) that sin entered the world.  

One of my favorite discourses about religion is from Douglas Adams and is appropriate here.....

"Your God person puts an apple on a tree in the middle of a garden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Suprise suprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting 'Gotcha.' It wouldn't have made any diffrence if they hadn't eaten it."
"Why not?"
"Because if you're dealing with somebody that has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end."

[xxjenniferxx]

See, the problem with saying "God isn't fair because look how people suffer" is that you aren't taking into account the cause of the suffering.  According to the Bible, God created everything to be perfect.  It wasn't until sin entered the world, that everything went to hell...literally and figuratively.  It is the fault of Satan, Adam, and Eve (your choice of combinations...I lean towards Adam...BWAHAHAHAHA ) that sin entered the world.  God told them they had the choice to do what they wanted.  They chose to eat from the tree.  They broke the rules...knowingly.  Therefore it is man's own fault that he suffers.  God doesn't look down on someone from Heaven and say "hmm...Bob...you suck *ZAP* now you're poor and can't have a house, or a job, or a family, or food".  I know that Christianity teaches that God is fair...He doesn't smite people just for the fun of it.  The test of life is that you will still have faith in Him no matter what comes your way.  The bad things happen because of the sinful nature of man, not the sadistic will of God.  

If that didn't make sense...too bad.  I'm tired.

This is true...

[loveplasticlove]

I'm an atheist.