Author Topic: gotta be careful with accents, lol  (Read 5738 times)

Will

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gotta be careful with accents, lol
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2003, 02:29:08 pm »
Quote from: "Dancernl"
Normans yes, but not Norman French.


What language then, did they speak? I was under the impression that the Normans spoke a form of Old French. Would 11th Century Norman French be more accurate then?

And I wasn't debating that the names came from the Normans.  I know the names stuck from beforehand. Linguistically as a whole, I meant.
"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." -Ozzy Osborne

Dancernl

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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2003, 02:47:30 pm »
it's very difficult to find an "origin language" because after a number of years (say a couple hundred)  the language has mutated so much it becomes unrecognizeable.   From what I understand from the film "The Story of English" that i saw in class, these Normans (or Angliii) spoke forms of Dutch and Frisian.  These languages spread with the invasion of Great Britian, pushing Celtic, Welsh, Gailic, etc. to the fringes of the isles where some traditions still survive.  You're right when you said that these Normans borrowed words from Latin, Romance languages and so on, but 90% of the common words found in Great Britian come from Anglo-Saxton language.
When you start to discuss the origins of modern English, that's when I side with Rosie.  There is just so much evidence from Shakesphere to the King James Bible that the development of modern words and phrases originated in this area.

If you're really interested in this type of study a really good book to pick up is The Power of Babel by John McWhorter.
It is a crime to kill a neighbor, and an act of heroism to kill an enemy.  But who is an enemy and who is a neighbor is purely a matter of social definition.  - E.R. Leach

Will

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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2003, 03:16:28 pm »
Quote from: "Dancernl"
it's very difficult to find an "origin language" because after a number of years (say a couple hundred)  the language has mutated so much it becomes unrecognizeable.   From what I understand from the film "The Story of English" that i saw in class, these Normans (or Angliii) spoke forms of Dutch and Frisian.  These languages spread with the invasion of Great Britian, pushing Celtic, Welsh, Gailic, etc. to the fringes of the isles where some traditions still survive.  You're right when you said that these Normans borrowed words from Latin, Romance languages and so on, but 90% of the common words found in Great Britian come from Anglo-Saxton language.
When you start to discuss the origins of modern English, that's when I side with Rosie.  There is just so much evidence from Shakesphere to the King James Bible that the development of modern words and phrases originated in this area.

If you're really interested in this type of study a really good book to pick up is The Power of Babel by John McWhorter.


According to Dr. Harold Whitehall from Indiana University, only 15% of the English language comes from Saxon, as far as vocabulary is concerned. However, this 15% covers the most common words in the language such as prepositions, pronouns, common verbs, and conjunctions. Most of the stuff I have read tends to agree with Dr. Whitehall.

Sorry, I misread that. You said common words. We aren't talking words as a whole. So, I shall note that those 90% of common words come from 15% of the language vocabulary as a whole.

And I have read The Power of Babel. It's a decent explanation of the modern approach to the study of linguistics.

Oh yes, when I refer to a source language, I'm speaking mainly of structure in regards to case forms, sentence structure, conjugations, and the like. Not vocabulary.

Edit: A final note: Everything I have ever read on the subject of the derivation of English disagrees with the video you watched in regards to the language of the Normans. It is French. Linkage. And there are plenty more sources that say the same thing. I hesitate to say that the video is flat out wrong, but it may be.

If you wish to get a very good view of the evolution of the English language, an excellent book for the lay person is "The Mother Tongue: English & How It Got That Way" by Bill Bryson. It seems like the person who wrote the article I linked to liked it too. :-D

One more edit: Here is some old English dated sometime around the 10th century.

Ic eom munuc, and ic singe ælce dæg sonfon tida mid gebroþrum; and ic eom gebysgod on rædinga and on sange; ac ic woulde betweonum leornian sprecan on Englisc ongemong minum oþrum manigfaldum bysgum.

If you read that carefully, you can probably understand it. Most of what is difficult there is where Saxon vocabulary has been superceded by Romance vocabulary and the older words are unfamiliar. English hasn't changed much since the Norman conquest. Read Chaucer's Cantabury Tales and you can probably understand the orignal manuscripts with a little work. Hmm.. that would have been a better example than the old English above... gotta find a copy....

Yet another edit: A passage from the Cantabury Tales....
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LimeTwister

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gotta be careful with accents, lol
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2003, 03:51:29 pm »
8O

and who said the computer would make you stupid?

Dancernl

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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2003, 08:27:11 pm »
Quote from: "m125 Boy"
According to Dr. Harold Whitehall from Indiana University, only 15% of the English language comes from Saxon, as far as vocabulary is concerned. However, this 15% covers the most common words in the language such as prepositions, pronouns, common verbs, and conjunctions. Most of the stuff I have read tends to agree with Dr. Whitehall.

Sorry, I misread that. You said common words. We aren't talking words as a whole. So, I shall note that those 90% of common words come from 15% of the language vocabulary as a whole.

And I have read The Power of Babel. It's a decent explanation of the modern approach to the study of linguistics.

Oh yes, when I refer to a source language, I'm speaking mainly of structure in regards to case forms, sentence structure, conjugations, and the like. Not vocabulary.

Edit: A final note: Everything I have ever read on the subject of the derivation of English disagrees with the video you watched in regards to the language of the Normans. It is French. Linkage. And there are plenty more sources that say the same thing. I hesitate to say that the video is flat out wrong, but it may be.

If you wish to get a very good view of the evolution of the English language, an excellent book for the lay person is "The Mother Tongue: English & How It Got That Way" by Bill Bryson. It seems like the person who wrote the article I linked to liked it too. :-D

One more edit: Here is some old English dated sometime around the 10th century.

Ic eom munuc, and ic singe ælce dæg sonfon tida mid gebroþrum; and ic eom gebysgod on rædinga and on sange; ac ic woulde betweonum leornian sprecan on Englisc ongemong minum oþrum manigfaldum bysgum.

If you read that carefully, you can probably understand it. Most of what is difficult there is where Saxon vocabulary has been superceded by Romance vocabulary and the older words are unfamiliar. English hasn't changed much since the Norman conquest. Read Chaucer's Cantabury Tales and you can probably understand the orignal manuscripts with a little work. Hmm.. that would have been a better example than the old English above... gotta find a copy....

Yet another edit: A passage from the Cantabury Tales....


ok, fair enough.  It's sketchy when you go back that far trying to trace an evolution.  And since you've read McWhorter you'd agree that he would argue that English is not the be all and end all of the Indo-European families, and there is no way of knowing the exact development of any language, which is the the opinion being taught to me.  I tend to agree.  Though I think that the intitial disagreement between you and Rosie was the development of modern English, though she only wrote English, which in turn spurred this debate.  This is fun, I actually enjoy discussion like this outside of my class.
It is a crime to kill a neighbor, and an act of heroism to kill an enemy.  But who is an enemy and who is a neighbor is purely a matter of social definition.  - E.R. Leach

Holly

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gotta be careful with accents, lol
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2003, 10:08:00 am »
*loves guys with brittish and australian accents*
 :D
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rosieposy87

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gotta be careful with accents, lol
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2003, 10:47:55 am »
Quote from: "Holly"
*loves guys with brittish and australian accents*
 :D


Come over here! I am considering going to America in my gap year, just to pick up fittays who like my accent! hee hee, and the boys here are rubbish!
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Si

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« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2003, 11:30:15 am »
Dutch people trying to speak english sound horrible

LOL



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Jophess

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gotta be careful with accents, lol
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2003, 11:35:01 am »
Quote from: "Si"
Dutch people trying to speak english sound horrible

LOL



I heard that once, quite humorous.

I love French-English and Slovak-English accents. Especially the Slovak-English.  :wink:
Joe

Holly

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« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2003, 04:40:34 pm »
Quote from: "rosieposy87"
Quote from: "Holly"
*loves guys with brittish and australian accents*
 :D


Come over here! I am considering going to America in my gap year, just to pick up fittays who like my accent! hee hee, and the boys here are rubbish!


trust me!! i want to!!  :)
i went to England a long time ago... but i was too young to appreciate it!
"i'm willing to do anything
to calm the storm in my heart
i've never been the praying kind
but lately i've been down upon my knees
not looking for a miracle
just a reason to believe"

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gotta be careful with accents, lol
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2003, 06:13:09 pm »
I LOVE  the scottish accent.i really dont know if i have an accent or not.I probably do cusmy first language is spanish.soo really dont know.Scott and Jamie can tell u.I dont know

Scotty

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« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2003, 12:17:31 pm »
yah its right AmeriCan!

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