This Is Very Important To Me

[Ghisy]

Errr, wasn't this thread about allowing gay people being married at first??
Because it has turned into a religious thread.
I mean, debate all you want but it doesn't have much to do with the initial topic anymore.
 :wink:

[keith]

Errr, wasn't this thread about allowing gay people being married at first??
Because it has turned into a religious thread.
I mean, debate all you want but it doesn't have much to do with the initial topic anymore.
 :wink:

Yep, religion and politics. An interesting read nonetheless.

[LimeTwister]

Errr, wasn't this thread about allowing gay people being married at first??
Because it has turned into a religious thread.
I mean, debate all you want but it doesn't have much to do with the initial topic anymore.
 :wink:

actually it has a lot to do with it.

[jlmusicchick]

and what about Jews and Muslims, they believe in the same God. They devote their life to God, but to Chritians can not get into heaven because they don't believe Jesus is the savior.

correct, its only with the blood of Christ that we can be saved.
Remove that vital element, and you are left with mankind on his own with sin and no way to cleanse it. We would be a world of the damned. But God loved the world enough that he gave his son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

(not quite quoting scripture but a paraphrase)

BV, are you not Catholic?  Are you a different branch of Christianity?

Because the Catholic church's OFFICIAL stance is that you CAN make it to heaven without believing in Jesus.  IN fact, you can make it to heaven without believing in God.  As long as you live your life according to the guidelines God places on man.

This may be the Church's official stance, but i can tell you for a fact that a LOT of Catholics do not feel this way. A lot of old skool Catholics like my mom were brought up to believe that no one who was Christian was making it to Heavan, and even though that sentiment isn't felt by everyone anymore, it has carried over to my generation. For instance, two years ago when I was at Sunday school, this girl started saying that Gandhi (Ghandi? Ganhdi? I never know how to spell his name) wasn't going to Heavan because he wasn't Christian. The entire class agreed, and said that that's what their parents taught them. I can say with confidence that no matter what the Pope says a lot of Catholics are going to believe this. Not trying to start a debate or anything, just wanted to let you know...

[Grakthis]

No.  This is defensive rhetoric.  And you know it.  Say whatever you have to to help you sleep at night.... but it comes down to ONE SIMPLE STATEMENT.

Defense of what? Not sleep at night due to what? Go and read my post in response to Rosie, I agree with you that people should have the same legal rights regardless of sexuality. I just think your bigot accusation carries no weight. People can have plenty of other reasons (right or wrong) for supporting the ammendment other than a desire to "punigh" "fags". The issue should be argued properly.

-Kev

Kev, that comment wasn't neccesarily directed at YOU.  I phrased it poorly, but somewhat intentionally to make a point.  People who think we should have a constitutional ammendment to remove a right from the gay minority that is currently in the hands of the states to decide is a biggot.  Plain and simple.  They are doing so because they want a group that they personally dislike because of their beliefs to be denied a right the state provides to others.

I cannot think of a more clearcut example of biggotry, personally.  It's JUST as though this hypothetical person is telling me that women shouldn't be allowed to vote because it hurts the american way.  It's arbitrary BS that's based purely on tradition and nothing else.

[Grakthis]

Though on the other hand, there were people before there was Jesus, are they in Hell?

Dante tried to answer that in The Inferno. He said that they were in a sort of Limbo place, kind of like Purgetory. They weren't punished, but they weren't in Heaven either. Though it's only fiction, so not really any factual information, but still a question that's been bugging me too.

I read part of The Inferno in class. (just last week...only sections of it though lol because my teacher needs to stuff 1000 essays into our lives before next tuesday  :roll: )

He read the 9 stages of Hell...or what not...and in there it mentioned that if you were born before Jesus (or something along those lines) you went to hell and read the punishments..

Some of those punishments were off the wall "run around with a flag in you hand while being stung by insects for eternity."

I don't know if I believe there is a Hell.  I think it more of a state of mind that was made up by humans or Earth itself.

Two things. Jesus was not Gods "friend". Jesus is God. THe trinity explains this nicely.

I was trying to place an example, because obviously you can't turn into someone else without the help of like plastic surgery.

Actually, in Dantes La Comedia, the Virtuous Pagans are in Hell, but it is a circle of hell that is identical to heaven EXCEPT God is not there.  The place is described as perfection and everyone there lives in eternal happiness, except they are denied the light of God.  I don't remember the Virtous Pagans receiving ANY punishments, least of all insects stinging them.

Edit:

This may be the Church's official stance, but i can tell you for a fact that a LOT of Catholics do not feel this way. A lot of old skool Catholics like my mom were brought up to believe that no one who was Christian was making it to Heavan, and even though that sentiment isn't felt by everyone anymore, it has carried over to my generation. For instance, two years ago when I was at Sunday school, this girl started saying that Gandhi (Ghandi? Ganhdi? I never know how to spell his name) wasn't going to Heavan because he wasn't Christian. The entire class agreed, and said that that's what their parents taught them. I can say with confidence that no matter what the Pope says a lot of Catholics are going to believe this. Not trying to start a debate or anything, just wanted to let you know...

Ummm... This is a non-point.  Because, frankly, if these Catholic parents don't follow the beliefs as set forth BY the Catholic church, thay are not  Catholic.  The church is a Papal Monarchy.  You cannot disagree with the Pope without commiting a sin in the eyes of Catholicism.  It is not a democracy.  There is no debate.  The opinions of Catholic parents do not matter.  All that matters is the official stance as handed down by the Pope and the Catholic catechism.  Period.

In fact, in times of old, simply disagreeing with the Pope was enough to get you excommunicated.  IE. Martin Luther.

[LimeTwister]

It was something my teacher was reading.  I don't think the insects went to the pagans (I don't know where he got what he was reading so I can't find what he was reading)...I was just stating some off the wall punishments (though I just looked it up online and it doesn't have that...)

[Grakthis]

It was something my teacher was reading.  I don't think the insects went to the pagans (I don't know where he got what he was reading so I can't find what he was reading)...I was just stating some off the wall punishments (though I just looked it up online and it doesn't have that...)

I used the Virtuous Pagans as short hand, but they are actually defined as everyone who lived properly in life but died before Jesus was sent to Earth to begin the new covenant with mankin.  The big group Dante talked about was the greek philosophers.

[jlmusicchick]

Ummm... This is a non-point.  Because, frankly, if these Catholic parents don't follow the beliefs as set forth BY the Catholic church, thay are not  Catholic.  The church is a Papal Monarchy.  You cannot disagree with the Pope without commiting a sin in the eyes of Catholicism.  It is not a democracy.  There is no debate.  The opinions of Catholic parents do not matter.  All that matters is the official stance as handed down by the Pope and the Catholic catechism.  Period.

In fact, in times of old, simply disagreeing with the Pope was enough to get you excommunicated.  IE. Martin Luther.

i wasn't trying to argue anything with you, i was just letting you know because I'm Catholic, and i know first hand. If you say that to any Catholic chances are they're going to disagree with you.

[rosieposy87]

Though on the other hand, there were people before there was Jesus, are they in Hell?

Dante tried to answer that in The Inferno. He said that they were in a sort of Limbo place, kind of like Purgetory. They weren't punished, but they weren't in Heaven either. Though it's only fiction, so not really any factual information, but still a question that's been bugging me too.

Yeaaaah i've been to Dante's tomb- though i didn't know anything about him when i went. We saw the eternal light and buggered off to have hot choccie cos all the shops were closed.

EDIT: Just because a) i'm bored and b) pictures of mini people are funny. Here is me at dante's tomb. And a pretty picture, lol.

Ummm... This is a non-point.  Because, frankly, if these Catholic parents don't follow the beliefs as set forth BY the Catholic church, thay are not  Catholic.  The church is a Papal Monarchy.  You cannot disagree with the Pope without commiting a sin in the eyes of Catholicism.  It is not a democracy.  There is no debate.  The opinions of Catholic parents do not matter.  All that matters is the official stance as handed down by the Pope and the Catholic catechism.  Period.

Ahhhh it would be so damn cool to be the Pope. I remember me and my chum Jacinta discussed what we would change our names to if we were the Pope, we decided upon "Pope Dudey Cool".

And Ghis, all of these threads go off topic (though i don't actually call this off topic anyway)- you should've learnt that by now!

[Jophess]

Technically, catholics have nothing wrong with gay people. It says in Leviticus : if a man lays on another man, they will banish to the eternals of hell or something close to that. Leviticus is a Jewish book, and not a book that the catholics follow.

[jlmusicchick]

Though on the other hand, there were people before there was Jesus, are they in Hell?

Dante tried to answer that in The Inferno. He said that they were in a sort of Limbo place, kind of like Purgetory. They weren't punished, but they weren't in Heaven either. Though it's only fiction, so not really any factual information, but still a question that's been bugging me too.

Yeaaaah i've been to Dante's tomb- though i didn't know anything about him when i went. We saw the eternal light and buggered off to have hot choccie cos all the shops were closed.

EDIT: Just because a) i'm bored and b) pictures of mini people are funny. Here is me at dante's tomb. And a pretty picture, lol.

Ummm... This is a non-point.  Because, frankly, if these Catholic parents don't follow the beliefs as set forth BY the Catholic church, thay are not  Catholic.  The church is a Papal Monarchy.  You cannot disagree with the Pope without commiting a sin in the eyes of Catholicism.  It is not a democracy.  There is no debate.  The opinions of Catholic parents do not matter.  All that matters is the official stance as handed down by the Pope and the Catholic catechism.  Period.

Ahhhh it would be so damn cool to be the Pope. I remember me and my chum Jacinta discussed what we would change our names to if we were the Pope, we decided upon "Pope Dudey Cool".

And Ghis, all of these threads go off topic (though i don't actually call this off topic anyway)- you should've learnt that by now!

Lol i'm so jealous Rosie! That's so cool...nice pics!

[Grakthis]

Technically, catholics have nothing wrong with gay people. It says in Leviticus : if a man lays on another man, they will banish to the eternals of hell or something close to that. Leviticus is a Jewish book, and not a book that the catholics follow.

Pst.  Actually you are wrong.  The old testament is part of the Catholic Catechism.  And the old testament says in SEVERAL places that it is wrong to lay with a man the way you would with a women.  AND, the official stance of the Catholic church is that gay sex is wrong, but being gay is not.

[tricia]

That's what I was thinking too Andrew.  Thanks

[kev222]

Kev, that comment wasn't neccesarily directed at YOU.

Oops. My bad.

People who think we should have a constitutional ammendment to remove a right from the gay minority that is currently in the hands of the states to decide is a biggot.  Plain and simple.  They are doing so because they want a group that they personally dislike because of their beliefs to be denied a right the state provides to others.

This is what I have a problem with. It's a straw man argument. You state dictatorially that everybody who supports the ammendment is motivated by a dislike for homosexuals because of their beliefs. With this in mind it follows that everybody who supports the ammendment is a bigot.

I would be in complete agreement with you if your statement above (bolded) was not a mis-representation of the pro-ammendment camp (I'm sure some are motivated by dislike (even hatred), but by no means all). For example, a typical attitude following from Christian beliefs might be that homosexual marriage is a sin, that all sin results in increased suffering and has a degenerative effect on the nation and even the world, which includes consiquences for the sinner in this life and the next which outweigh any loss of merriage rights. If anything, the motivation is love for the homosexual and the population in general. The only dislike is for the action and the consiquences, not the person. It's not about intolerance or hatred or bigotry, it's a position which follows sincerly from a persons beliefs.

Edit: Disclaimer: The ONLY thing this post is intended to say is that support for the ammendment is not necessarily born out of an attitude of homophobia or bigotry. Although I am sure that many are using this as an oppurtunity to punish homsoexuals and that attitude is beneath contempt.

-Kev