Author Topic: This Is Very Important To Me  (Read 56049 times)

jlmusicchick

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« Reply #90 on: February 27, 2004, 02:39:19 pm »
Quote from: "tricia"
LOL...tell that to the framers of the Constitution...


oh i know no amount of bitching about it is going to change anything, but oh well....who knows, maybe so many people will sign the petition someone will listen? i'm taking effective citizenship right now, and we're learning how to be "model citizens" so i'm trying to be positive  :razz:

JazzyManda

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« Reply #91 on: February 27, 2004, 02:40:28 pm »
there's nothing wrong with gay rights. i'll sign it

Amanda

tricia

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« Reply #92 on: February 27, 2004, 02:40:38 pm »
Quote from: "blackvulture"
Quote from: "tricia"
LOL...tell that to the framers of the Constitution...

This makes me twitch since Seperation of Church and State is NOT in the Constitution!!!
It was in a completely seperate letter, not the law.


I know that...I'm just saying that all of them were deeply religious men, and they built this country and it's principles on the beliefs they had.
I think you underestimate the level of my sneakiness

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« Reply #93 on: February 27, 2004, 02:42:16 pm »
Quote from: "tricia"
I know that...I'm just saying that all of them were deeply religious men, and they built this country and it's principles on the beliefs they had.

ok :)

LimeTwister

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« Reply #94 on: February 27, 2004, 02:59:10 pm »
and that was a long time ago too...

I think you have to adapt to the times.  


Though...If they did ban gay marriages, they can always unban (is that a word?) gay marriages too.

LimeTwister

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« Reply #95 on: February 27, 2004, 03:11:07 pm »
I also want to ask another question...

How do you know it's what God wants...how do you know there is even a God?  How do you know that the bible is 100% correct, or if things about Jesus is absolutly correct.  

Like, for instance, (I know this has nothing to do with this topic) but supposedly Jesus was born in April and 6 years before he was believed to be.

I don't want bible quotes, they don't proove much to me.

I am just saying you don't know what is all truth and what is not.  You're not God so you don't know if he cares if you're gay or not.  He did (if you believe that) make you. I love hearing stuff like "humans did it" well grand...if humans really did this you'd think he'd come down and EVERYONE would here him say "STOP THAT," if he is all powerful you'd think he'd be able to stop it.

Vultch

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« Reply #96 on: February 27, 2004, 03:11:56 pm »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
and that was a long time ago too...
I think you have to adapt to the times.

Absolute truth does not adapt, does not change and is constant for all of time.

Vultch

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« Reply #97 on: February 27, 2004, 03:16:46 pm »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
I am just saying you don't know what is all truth and what is not.  You're not God so you don't know if he cares if you're gay or not.  He did (if you believe that) make you. I love hearing stuff like "humans did it" well grand...if humans really did this you'd think he'd come down and EVERYONE would here him say "STOP THAT," if he is all powerful you'd think he'd be able to stop it.

Lime... he did come to earth in the person of Christ and say "STOP THAT".
And you choose to ignore it.
Free will's a bitch.

Quote from: "LimeTwister"
I don't want bible quotes, they don't proove much to me.

so be it.

Grakthis

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« Reply #98 on: February 27, 2004, 03:17:47 pm »
Quote from: "kev222"
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Edit: @ All - Being a biggot is fine, if that's what floats your boat.  But even if you don't like "Fags" and you want them to be "punished" for their feelings (which is EXACTLY what this is.  Don't kid yourself with rewording.  This is a means of punishing a voluntary minority) fine.  You're just an asshole, but not neccesarily stupid.

Despite you dictatorial assertion to the contrary, wanting to "punish" "fags" is hardly the only possible motivation people could have for wanting this ammendment. If, for whatever reason, people feel that permitting homosexual marriages will have a negative affect on the society in which they live then their support for this ammendment is not born out of some desire to punish gay people. Just as support for tougher immigration laws are not born out of racism.

The bigot accusation and it's relatives are banded around far too often in every area of debate. Anti-abortion is anti-choice, anti-profanity is prudish, pro-war is warmongering, those in favour stronger immigration laws is racist, supporters of animal testing are cruel, creationists are anti-science, those apposed to cloning and stem cell research are anti-health... the list goes on. I'm not trying to say whether I support the ammendment or not, just that the bigot accusation is a purely emotional argument and has no place in the debate.

-Kev


No.  This is defensive rhetoric.  And you know it.  Say whatever you have to to help you sleep at night.... but it comes down to ONE SIMPLE STATEMENT.

Can a man and a woman who are in love form a LEGALLY BINDING contract in the eyes of the government that is based on PERSONAL freedom for the PURSUIT of happiness?

Yes.


Can a man and a man or a woman and a woman who are in love form a LEGALLY BINDING contract in the eyes of the government, that provides them the SAME rights as a man and a woman in the same situation?

NO.

This is not equity.  

Now, I am not all gungho about going out and making it specificially legal in places where it currently is not.  BUt I am COMPLETELY against amending the constitution to make it ILLEGAL.

I mean, CHRIST ALL MIGHTY, think for a minute!  This is 2004 and we are talking about an amendment to the US COnstitution to TAKE AWAY a freedom from a minority?!?  WTF is wrong with this picture?!?

Edit:  Yes, seperation of church and state is NOT actually part of the constitution.  BUt seperation of the state from a SPECIFIC religion IS.  The state must allow people to practice their own personal religions.  If my religion wants to call a union between two women marriage then my religion is entitled to.  The difference is in what the government calls it.

And frankly, I don't think it matters what the government calls it.  Who cares?!? Let them call it a civil union.  If it gets the religious right to STFU then it's fine by me.
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LimeTwister

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« Reply #99 on: February 27, 2004, 03:29:19 pm »
Quote from: "blackvulture"

Lime... he did come to earth in the person of Christ and say "STOP THAT".
And you choose to ignore it.
Free will's a bitch.


Guess I have a different relationship with God then most (more than guess).   It has been working well so far.

Though I need to be a better person...

tricia

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« Reply #100 on: February 27, 2004, 03:30:10 pm »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
How do you know it's what God wants...how do you know there is even a God?  How do you know that the bible is 100% correct, or if things about Jesus is absolutly correct.  

I am just saying you don't know what is all truth and what is not.  You're not God so you don't know if he cares if you're gay or not.  He did (if you believe that) make you. I love hearing stuff like "humans did it" well grand...if humans really did this you'd think he'd come down and EVERYONE would here him say "STOP THAT," if he is all powerful you'd think he'd be able to stop it.


It's called faith.  

I have faith that the Bible is true and divinely inspired.  That said, since the Bible says sex outside of marraige is wrong (hetero OR homosexual), I believe God says sex outside of marraige is wrong.  I don't care who's doing it with who, my faith in the Bible and it's validity leads me to feel what I feel.  I don't care if you think I'm a prude or whatever, I'm proud of who I am and what I believe.  I will not, though, force my beliefs on others, and I don't run around screaming "YOU'RE ALL GOING TO HELL", you all have the right to believe whatever you want.

God gave man free will so he could see who would choose him.  He didn't create us to be our supreme dictator.  If you were familiar with the Bible, you'd know that's the basis of the Christian faith.  Saying he'd come down here and be able to stop that is ignorance of the belief.  God can do whatever he wants.  He choose to let us do whatever we want; follow him or not.
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LimeTwister

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« Reply #101 on: February 27, 2004, 03:37:15 pm »
That is like having a child, not speaking to the child...have a friend teach the child for awhile...then being mad at the child if the child doesn't believe in you.

It's not the Child's fault you were not there.

But I need to stop with an argument, because I have never read much (basically any) of the bible...Though on the other hand, there were people before there was Jesus, are they in Hell?

Grakthis

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« Reply #102 on: February 27, 2004, 03:40:25 pm »
Quote from: "tricia"

It's called faith.  

I have faith that the Bible is true and divinely inspired.  That said, since the Bible says sex outside of marraige is wrong (hetero OR homosexual), I believe God says sex outside of marraige is wrong.  I don't care who's doing it with who, my faith in the Bible and it's validity leads me to feel what I feel.  I don't care if you think I'm a prude or whatever, I'm proud of who I am and what I believe.  I will not, though, force my beliefs on others, and I don't run around screaming "YOU'RE ALL GOING TO HELL", you all have the right to believe whatever you want.

God gave man free will so he could see who would choose him.  He didn't create us to be our supreme dictator.  If you were familiar with the Bible, you'd know that's the basis of the Christian faith.  Saying he'd come down here and be able to stop that is ignorance of the belief.  God can do whatever he wants.  He choose to let us do whatever we want; follow him or not.


Well put T.  Though I would be curious to see if you could find me the passages where God says that sex outside of marriage is a sin.  Because, while the Catholic church has adopted this policy, I am fairly confident that no where in the Bible is it actually stated.

Jesus has a number of passages where he talks marriage and sex and no where do I remember him saying sex outside of marriage was wrong.
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jlmusicchick

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« Reply #103 on: February 27, 2004, 03:41:09 pm »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
Though on the other hand, there were people before there was Jesus, are they in Hell?


Dante tried to answer that in The Inferno. He said that they were in a sort of Limbo place, kind of like Purgetory. They weren't punished, but they weren't in Heaven either. Though it's only fiction, so not really any factual information, but still a question that's been bugging me too.

Grakthis

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« Reply #104 on: February 27, 2004, 03:42:43 pm »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
That is like having a child, not speaking to the child...have a friend teach the child for awhile...then being mad at the child if the child doesn't believe in you.

It's not the Child's fault you were not there.

But I need to stop with an arguement, because I have never read much (basically any) of the bible...Though on the other hand, there were people before there was Jesus, are they in Hell?


Two things.  Jesus was not Gods "friend".  Jesus is God.  THe trinity explains this nicely.

Second, God cannot come down and tell us directly what we can and cannot do.  This would hurt free will.

Third, we are not children.  We are adults.  And we are capable of making our own informed decisions.

Fourth, the bible states that when jesus ascended he threw open the gates of Hell and allowed all of those who deserved salvation to travel to heaven with him.  I'll search out the actual passage.....
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