Kerry concedes, Bush still President.

[BWilli]

We should have stopped them as soon as we knew they were going on.  Whenevr that was.

i think we can all agree on that

[tylor2000]

What other definition of "murder" would limey be using OTHER than the Christian definition he is familiar with?

He could be using a legal definition, other secular definitions,  and then there are pagan influences.  If you want to use western religious, and even christian, examples, just ignore me and go back to decorating your christmas tree.  :wink:

tylor

[rosieposy87]

Cite your source.  Different sites have different counts, but none of them are anywhere NEAR 100,000

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/- 14000-16000

http://www.mykeru.com/bodycount.html - >8000

http://news.amnesty.org/mav/index/ENGMDE140052004 - ~10000

Those only count civilians.  Not soldiers.

And even including soldiers, it's NOWHERE NEAR 100,000.

Article disproving 100,000 death theory: here

Why does the number make a difference Tricia? Thousands have still been killed regardless- women and children who were not guilty of any crime.

it's a damn shame rosie, no doubt, but look at that number compared to the number of people Sadam has killed...innocent people...now that Hussain is gone, think of the number of people that have been saved from him...

You think i don't know that? My grandpa was a British diplomat there during Sadam's rise. My point was merely that the number of civilians killed is awful, whether its 10 for 10,000. I was for this war- if only to get Sadam out, i KNOW what went on- don't patronise me. I disagree with the war now based on how it was sold to the British/American public- a 'mistake'? BULLSHIT. And the way the American government has handled the whole situation in a 'might is right' manor- to the point where civil war is just on the horizon, and the way it failed to hold anyone accountable for the Abu Ghraib abuses.

[tricia]

The soldiers involved with the prison abuses in Iraq are being court marshalled.

3 have so far plead guilty.  One was sentenced to 8 years in prison, one to one year, and the third (most recently) who was accused of watching but not participating was demoted to Private and lost pay.

7 total soldiers have been charged so far.

[Will]

The bin Laden family got to fly home 9-11-01, when the normal American could not.

Somebody puts too much faith in Moore. Check your facts. Yes, a bunch Saudi nationals, including members of the bin Ladin family, were allowed to fly out of the country shortly after 9/11, after the FBI checked them out. However, the flights started out on September 14th, 2001, the day after US airspace was reopened to civilian traffic.

Don't believe me?

Fearing reprisals against Saudi nationals, the Saudi government asked for help in getting some of its citizens out of the country….we have found that the request came to the attention of Richard Clarke and that each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure.

No commercial planes, including chartered flights, were permitted to fly into, out of, or within the United States until September 13, 2001. After the airspace reopened, six chartered flights with 142 people, mostly Saudi Arabian nationals, departed from the United States between September 14 and 24. One flight, the so-called Bin Ladin flight, departed the United States on September 20 with 26 passengers, most of them relatives of Usama Bin Ladin. We have found no credible evidence that any chartered flights of Saudi Arabian nationals departed the United States before the reopening of national airspace.

The Saudi flights were screened by law enforcement officials, primarily the FBI, to ensure that people on these flights did not pose a threat to national security, and that nobody of interest to the FBI with regard to the 9/11 investigation was allowed to leave the country. Thirty of the 142 people on these flights were interviewed by the FBI, including 22 of the 26 people (23 passengers and 3 private security guards) on the Bin Ladin flight. Many were asked detailed questions. None of the passengers stated that they had any recent contact with Usama Bin Ladin or knew anything about terrorist activity.

The FBI checked a variety of databases for information on the Bin Ladin flight passengers and searched the aircraft. It is unclear whether the TIPOFF terrorist watchlist was checked. At our request, the Terrorist Screening Center has rechecked the names of individuals on the flight manifests of these six Saudi flights against the current TIPOFF watchlist. There are no matches.

The FBI has concluded that nobody was allowed to depart on these six flights who the FBI wanted to interview in connection with the 9/11 attacks, or who the FBI later concluded had any involvement in those attacks. To date, we have uncovered no evidence to contradict this conclusion.

[synthetic vnv]

I just wanted to say that i respect everyone's opinions, but i have seen some 'facts' stated that are untrue.

First of all, Bush is not starting up the draft. He has said the all volenteer military works well. The draft was a bill that two liberal democrats tried to start up so they can blame bush. Almost everyone voted no on it, and there is no way the president could possibly start up the draft. It is impossible, he couldnt get it passes even if he wanted to. So stop worrying.

Also, the economy is not Bush's fault. It is because of the terrorist attack, and the war that caused it. The terrorist attack killed the economy. And now Bush is trying to fix it. Dont worry, it will get a lot better. After all Bush is using some classic republican policys used by Reagan, and we all know how good those policys were.

My advice to everyone: please dont worry. Bush will only make things better rather than worse. And over 50% of Americans agree with me, because after all, bush did in fact win.

btw, im new here.  

[LimeTwister]

The bin Laden family got to fly home 9-11-01, when the normal American could not.

Somebody puts too much faith in Moore.

I actually got it from a lady that called a radio station telling about her story of losing her daughter that day...I don't listen to Michael Moore, unless I read it as a quote.  I have been to his website no more than 4 times...and even then I didn't read much of his stuff.

Thank you for puting the 9-11 report up.

[LimeTwister]

The soldiers involved with the prison abuses in Iraq are being court marshalled.

3 have so far plead guilty.  One was sentenced to 8 years in prison, one to one year, and the third (most recently) who was accused of watching but not participating was demoted to Private and lost pay.

7 total soldiers have been charged so far.

Weren't the soldiers under order to do so?

That's really a question--I have heard they were ordered to do it, so why should they be punished?

[Steavis]

Well, as for them being ordered, the word recieved back in Madigan over in Ft. Lewis is that they were ordered to make the iraqi prisoners talk using some "outside of the box" techniques, some of them that they were told to use were flat wrong to begin with, and I think the soldiers being punished took it ALOT farther than their superiors had thought they would, using techniques not even hinted towards them, however I could be wrong, we have come across alot of people in our military we know as "s**tbags"

Ok, I can't not say this anymore, whoever it is that has a sig where you replaced the stars from our flag with the symbol of the Nazi Empire, you disgust me, period......

[LimeTwister]

Ok, I can't not say this anymore, whoever it is that has a sig where you replaced the stars from our flag with the symbol of the Nazi Empire, you disgust me, period......

I made that sig.  But I got the picture from a different site....Which, I do see some comparisons to the Bush regime.  Like, if you tell a lie long, hard enough, people start to believe it.

[Will]

If you wanna compare Nazi Germany to the United States today, I suggest that you do a whole lot more reading. Where is the authoritarian government? Where is the command economy? Where are the executions of dissenters? Where is the genocide? Where are the territory wars? Where is the racist ideology? Where is the unrestricted submarine warfare? Where is the goverment owned propaganda machine? Where is the personality cult? Where are the youth orders a la the HJ and BdM? Where is the hyperinflation? Where is the military rule? Where is the full war? Where is the rationing? Where are the rallies? Where is the SS?

There is none of that. It is only a smear against Bush and his administration. Therefore, I invoke Godwin's law. Serious discussion in this thread is OVER!

[Grakthis]

Also, the economy is not Bush's fault. It is because of the terrorist attack, and the war that caused it. The terrorist attack killed the economy. And now Bush is trying to fix it. Dont worry, it will get a lot better. After all Bush is using some classic republican policys used by Reagan, and we all know how good those policys were.

I think you forgot your /sarcasm tags, yo.

[LimeTwister]

I didn't say you had to agree with me.  I said I see comparisons...That's a personal opinion, if you don't agree--that's fine.  Saying that all serious discussion is over is fine...if that's what you think.

[rosieposy87]

The soldiers involved with the prison abuses in Iraq are being court marshalled.

3 have so far plead guilty.  One was sentenced to 8 years in prison, one to one year, and the third (most recently) who was accused of watching but not participating was demoted to Private and lost pay.

7 total soldiers have been charged so far.

Oh *clap clap* someone lost pay? Oh boo hoo, someone got 8 years? I don't call that being held accountable for degrading the moral worth of someone's life, not by substantive or procedural justice. Its a disgrace. Rumsfeld should've resigned; it should've gone to the top of the chain of command. This is not a one off problem- its an inherant problem in the U.S forces- take a look at Guantanamo Bay.

[LimeTwister]

You're talking about an adminstration that ran their campaign on being "moral," Rosie...What you want will probably never happen because the American media hasn't really put a lot of pressure on the situation.  It's not in the news everyday, and when it is the network gets blamed for "only showing the negative side of the war."