French Referendum on the European Constitution defeated!

[zurielshimon]

We'll kinda have to unite if we ever plan to join the United Federation of Planets. :?

[Will]

Central governments, in general, are more trouble than they're worth.

[kev222]

I really don't see how any democratic process involving 25 parties with largely disparate agendas and all armed with their own vetos can yield any kind of useful document.

Democracy is a joke. It's just a pity that there's no better alternative.

[neos]

Democracy is a joke. It's just a pity that there's no better alternative.

My thoughts exactly.

[Grakthis]

Democracy is a joke. It's just a pity that there's no better alternative.

Emperor Andrew has a nice ring to it.

but you can call me Darth Grak.

[rosieposy87]

Democracy is a joke. It's just a pity that there's no better alternative.

My thoughts exactly.

Referendums in particular are crap. A yes or no answer to a document like this, or indeed to many of the issues put forward in referendums, is too simple to convey any kind of coherent message.

[kev222]

Democracy is a joke. It's just a pity that there's no better alternative.

My thoughts exactly.

Referendums in particular are crap. A yes or no answer to a document like this, or indeed to many of the issues put forward in referendums, is too simple to convey any kind of coherent message.

Truth.

[Will]

Referendums in particular are crap. A yes or no answer to a document like this, or indeed to many of the issues put forward in referendums, is too simple to convey any kind of coherent message.

Being Californian, I have a different view. By law in my state, certain things MUST be passed by referendum. It keeps the legislature in check. If we want to pass our own law and bypass the legislature entirely, we can use referendum too, providing we get enough signatures to place an issue on the ballot. The point isn't to convey a certain message with a yes or no. The point is to give the common man a say in a major decision that will affect him, instead of leaving it to a bunch of slimy career politicians.

[Grakthis]

I aspire to someday be a slimy career politician!

[rosieposy87]

Referendums in particular are crap. A yes or no answer to a document like this, or indeed to many of the issues put forward in referendums, is too simple to convey any kind of coherent message.

Being Californian, I have a different view. By law in my state, certain things MUST be passed by referendum. It keeps the legislature in check. If we want to pass our own law and bypass the legislature entirely, we can use referendum too, providing we get enough signatures to place an issue on the ballot. The point isn't to convey a certain message with a yes or no. The point is to give the common man a say in a major decision that will affect him, instead of leaving it to a bunch of slimy career politicians.

I agree with the Californian system and the Swiss one too-i think they work effectively. (Maybe thats because one day i will go to switzerland and persuade everyone to pass a law to give me chocolate everyday) I just think referendums as an answer to something like this are bollocks- i'm not sure that Californians vote on matters as huge as this? What i'm not objecting to is the process of referendums and the way they give the 'common man' a say- but that the options presented in them are too limited a vast amount of the time.

[Will]

I just think referendums as an answer to something like this are bollocks- i'm not sure that Californians vote on matters as huge as this?

Under the California Constitution, three things require referenda: amendments to the California Constitution, most bond measures, amending a law passed by referendum. Additionally, if enough signatures are gathered, anything can be put on the ballot.

It's funny. I believe the exact opposite you do about referendums. They shouldn't be over the small stuff. That's what the legislators are for. Major decisions should be left to voters.

[rosieposy87]

It's funny. I believe the exact opposite you do about referendums. They shouldn't be over the small stuff. That's what the legislators are for. Major decisions should be left to voters.

No no, we don't think the opposite. We are just coming at it from different angles. I completely agree with the concept of popular sovereignty and voters having the final word- i just don't like the way in which referendums do this. I don't think yes or no is enough- i think maybe a consultative process with the electorate and then a range of options could be far more effective. People vote 'yes' or 'no' for reasons other than a straight answer to the question a lot of the time, and yes or no is often too blunt an instrument to make an informed decision on an issue.

[Si]

I aspire to someday be a slimy career politician!

And you will be very successful