Author Topic: McCain gets slammed!!!  (Read 54111 times)

NoelleNC

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McCain gets slammed!!!
« Reply #105 on: September 12, 2007, 08:59:25 am »
Sort of. But I'm not saying that because they can reproduce they must have some deeper emotional or spiritual connection/bond, or that they receive it once they have reproduced. I think homosexuals can be just as spiritually and emotionally connected. Yeah, all I'm saying is that it is the nature of heterosexual intercourse to create offspring - and even if some individuals aren't born with that, it's still the common nature.

And why can't this law be based on the empirical evidence that exists? I mean we have laws of gravity- and of course no one can say for sure that the laws of gravity may someday alter or whatever, but as far as we know this is how it is. In the same way, as far as we know heterosexual relationships are the only ones that reproduce (and I'm talking humans here).

Anyhow, I hope nobody thinks I'm saying homosexual relationships are not as good as heterosexual relationships. It's all very subjective!

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« Reply #106 on: September 12, 2007, 02:39:20 pm »
grakthis quit blowing things out of proportion just so you can be right about everything....

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« Reply #107 on: September 12, 2007, 03:05:50 pm »
Quote from: "NoelleNC"
Sort of. But I'm not saying that because they can reproduce they must have some deeper emotional or spiritual connection/bond, or that they receive it once they have reproduced. I think homosexuals can be just as spiritually and emotionally connected. Yeah, all I'm saying is that it is the nature of heterosexual intercourse to create offspring - and even if some individuals aren't born with that, it's still the common nature.

And why can't this law be based on the empirical evidence that exists? I mean we have laws of gravity- and of course no one can say for sure that the laws of gravity may someday alter or whatever, but as far as we know this is how it is. In the same way, as far as we know heterosexual relationships are the only ones that reproduce (and I'm talking humans here).

Anyhow, I hope nobody thinks I'm saying homosexual relationships are not as good as heterosexual relationships. It's all very subjective!


I understand your position about what you meant by "special."  We're good there.

But when I say "law" i mean "as written down by the government of the united states."

Like, would we pass a law that says "Gravity is a natural law, therefore, we do not recognize anything that breaks gravity."

It's natural to have sex to produce off spring, but we don't make it illegal to use birth control.

If we start with the premise that male and female relationships are special because they are the "natural" evolution of life, why does the government have a place to legislate that people MUST behave according to the natural laws of life?

Is that the role we want for government?

Or do we want the government to maximize people's freedoms?
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NoelleNC

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« Reply #108 on: September 12, 2007, 05:51:08 pm »
Lol- I'm not stipulating that if my premise were taken into consideration those who married would have to reproduce. They would just be protected in "marriage" because of the nature of heterosexuality. Those who have never had the potential to reproduce by way of their coupling would not be allowed to marry. That is all. =)

go garriage.

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« Reply #109 on: September 12, 2007, 06:14:50 pm »
Because separating and branding them differently is the way to go.

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« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2007, 05:05:34 am »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
Because separating and branding them differently is the way to go.




You dont have to brand them different or separate, because they already are.


The best part about this is if you tell someone who is gay they are the same as a straight man they would probably scoff and get insulted.  However when if comes to gay marriage rights they can put that behavior on the shelf right?  


I am not against gay marriage, but i am against gay people running around saying they are the same as everyone else.  The same goes for feminists saying they are the same as men.
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« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2007, 06:38:36 am »
However, a straight man and gay man are both men, both human.  In the eyes of the law, gays should not be treated as a subspecies.  It's like saying a black man cannot legally marry a white woman or vice versa.

NoelleNC

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« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2007, 08:07:41 am »
The differences between race and sexuality are not interchangeable. So many people play that card, but I feel that is a weak comparison that is just meant to make people feel guilty.

Not allowing a black man to marry a white woman is not the same as not allowing a man to marry another man. It's just not the same at all.

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« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2007, 10:58:50 am »
Quote from: "NoelleNC"
Lol- I'm not stipulating that if my premise were taken into consideration those who married would have to reproduce. They would just be protected in "marriage" because of the nature of heterosexuality. Those who have never had the potential to reproduce by way of their coupling would not be allowed to marry. That is all. =)

go garriage.


No.  I don't think you're following me.

I mean, why should the law differentiate between those who are choosing to marry and are "special" and those who are choosing to enter into the same LEGAL contract but are not "special."

Why does the LAW care about the natural order of things?

I realize that PEOPLE will call it whatever they want... but why should the GOVERNMENT differentiate between those two pairings?
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LimeTwister

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« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2007, 11:03:20 am »
Quote from: "NoelleNC"
The differences between race and sexuality are not interchangeable. So many people play that card, but I feel that is a weak comparison that is just meant to make people feel guilty.

Not allowing a black man to marry a white woman is not the same as not allowing a man to marry another man. It's just not the same at all.


And I'm never going to change your opinion, so I'm not going to try.

Grakthis

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« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2007, 11:09:07 am »
Quote from: "NoelleNC"
The differences between race and sexuality are not interchangeable. So many people play that card, but I feel that is a weak comparison that is just meant to make people feel guilty.

Not allowing a black man to marry a white woman is not the same as not allowing a man to marry another man. It's just not the same at all.


It's really not.

You're sugesting that the government should pass a law that applies to one group of people because of factors they are BORN to.

Like, you even use it as your argument.  The marriage of a male and female is special because it's a natural union that could, in theory, produce offspring.  This is a fact of birth and not a decision being made.

Just like being born gay is a fact of birth (or a result of some event in early childhood) and not a decision being made by the person.

Just like being born white is a fact of birth.

Can you actually argue that it is GOOD for a law to be based on something that is nothing more than a fact of birth?

Should we have different laws for people born to different circumstances?

You can argue that it's a "natural" pairing all you want, but that argument can also be used to say that marriage between two white people is a "natural" pairing because that's how we developed in nature.

Tell me, if it were discovered that some aboriginal tribe in Australia had evolved such that they were biologically unable to breed with a man or woman from the US, would you make that "marriage" illegal?

It's a slipper slope.  There are no circumstances under which you can justifiably deny someone a right JUST because he or she is born with specific genetic traits.  Either he or she is human, and therefore deserves all rights that humans are given, or else he or she is not.  There can be no subclassifications where some are given specific rights that others are not.
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NoelleNC

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« Reply #116 on: September 13, 2007, 12:18:47 pm »
What makes a person gay is not even something that can be pinpointed. I do believe some people are born gay. I also think others develop that way as a result of their environment and/or life experiences. There is a huge spectrum of 'how gay' some people are or 'how bisexual' they are.
So, in sum, I don't think we can say for sure that every gay person was born that way - was predestined to be that way from conception or at some point in the womb.

Also, there are laws and programs based on factors of birth (race/sex) anyway, as far as I know. I see no problem in telling anyone that they cannot marry bc their bond is not one of a man and a woman, and that they must use another word for their bond. For the life of me I don't see what is so "offensive" about that.

NoelleNC

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« Reply #117 on: September 13, 2007, 12:43:05 pm »
Grakthis: You can argue that it's a "natural" pairing all you want, but that argument can also be used to say that marriage between two white people is a "natural" pairing because that's how we developed in nature.

^^ There is nothing more productive about two white people reproducing than any other pair of heterosexuals, so I don't see your logic here. But there is something more productive about heterosexuals reproducing than homosexuals repro- oh wait, they can't. My argument pretty much revolves around productivity and recognizing its uniqueness by allowing the denotation of a marriage to continue to encompass that.

You seem to imply that my scenario is unlaw-like because it follows some moral law instead of something logical or technical. In my opinion, however, it is very logical and technical and not about morality, spirituality, or the loaded meaning of the word "special".  As a trait, heterosexuals reproduce.

I don't really feel like debating that much more about it. It's just my opinion! I wouldn't flip out if gay marriages were made legal- whatever, it wouldn't personally offend me. I would just ideally rather it get it's own name for the sake of clarity.

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« Reply #118 on: September 13, 2007, 01:29:09 pm »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
However, a straight man and gay man are both men, both human.  In the eyes of the law, gays should not be treated as a subspecies.  It's like saying a black man cannot legally marry a white woman or vice versa.




Pedophiles are human, so they shouldnt be treated as a subspecies right?   Just because its morally atrocious i mean, jeez, they are still PEOPLE.   Homosexuality, unlike pedophilia may be morally acceptable to a larger percentage of the population, but it is not 100%.

I know that argument is really screwed up but laws dont treat everyone equally.   What were laws based on originally when they were created?   What has changed laws over time?  

Personally i have no issue with allowing homosexuals to marry, however are they morally accepted enough by society that the law should be changed at this time?   Im not really sure.  It could be more trouble than its worth.   Im for it, but you cant just say "Oh they are human beings too so they should just get whatever they want"


edit:   Yeah i know this argument is reallllly messed up, im just trying to point out that saying just because homosexuals are human they should be allowed to marry is a very weak argument.   I could have also gone other routes such as murderers who carry no remorse, burglars etc.
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LimeTwister

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« Reply #119 on: September 13, 2007, 02:38:26 pm »
I am talking about two consenting adults...not an adult abusing a child.