Author Topic: Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...  (Read 16677 times)

Logikal X

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
    • MSN Messenger - tqhx@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - tqhx
    • View Profile
Re: Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2003, 03:23:48 pm »
Quote from: "PintOGuinness"
Quote from: "rroo"
And now what do the US do? It was exactly the same with the POW's. In the same convention all members of the United Nations agreed not to show POW's in the media. The US government forced CNN not to show the 4 captured POW's but numerouw times they did show iraqi POW's.

I guess the US government doesn't really care about human rights when those humans are the enemy. The people held hostage in Guantanamo Bay aren't treated the way they should be either. Does anyone in the US cares?


And now I will step in and point out why you are incorrect, since my pal Andrew so politely left that out of his tirade... (bad Andrew.. bad bad... :P)

Article 13 of the third Geneva convention says PoWs must be humanely treated and "protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity". But the article does not prevent all photographs of prisoners, and newspapers and TV companies are not bound by the convention, which applies only to states or "detaining powers".

Article 13 does not to cover the bodies of soldiers killed in battle, since they are not prisoners of war. POWs must be protected against insults and public curiosity is understood to mean that thier captors should not allow them to be shown publicly "in humiliating or insulting circumstances". So Iraq coercing PoWs into appearing on TV would be a grave breach of the convention and a war crime, but shots of prisoners of war at a distance and not identifiable as individuals are fine.

It was felt my the interim government of Iraq that the people of Iraq must see these photos to truly believe that these men were dead.  It is unfortunate that they are being so widely spread as they are, but in a society held in fear for so long, surely you can understand why you must be sure... HAVE to be sure that they are gone.  These people are terrified still... if you lived in hell since the day you were born and woke up one morning to someone telling you the devil was dead... wouldn't you demand proof?

Lastly... those being held in Guantanimo bay are considered "Enemy Combatants" NOT POWs.  They do not fall under the articles of the Geneva Convention.  The United States is affording them MOST of thse courtesies.  But they do not have to.



lol...i was awaiting this  :wink:

seeee! the filthy government isnt sooooo bad!
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

rroo

  • Just a day, just an ordinary day
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
    • View Profile
    • http://www.vanessacarlton.info
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2003, 03:37:58 pm »
Ahhh here's something I can reply to. Thanks!

Quote

Article 13 of the third Geneva convention says PoWs must be humanely treated and "protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity". But the article does not prevent all photographs of prisoners, and newspapers and TV companies are not bound by the convention, which applies only to states or "detaining powers".


I know about that article, but if the POW's really were 'protected against public curiosity' they wouldn't have been shown on tv. The footage shot of the POW's often came from journalists who were with the troops during the war. Everything they shot was first screened by some people from the army. They shouldn't have allowed that footage to be used.

Quote

Article 13 does not to cover the bodies of soldiers killed in battle, since they are not prisoners of war.

So the guy from the senate (see quote I posted before) is wrong?

Quote

It was felt my the interim government of Iraq that the people of Iraq must see these photos to truly believe that these men were dead. It is unfortunate that they are being so widely spread as they are, but in a society held in fear for so long, surely you can understand why you must be sure... HAVE to be sure that they are gone. These people are terrified still... if you lived in hell since the day you were born and woke up one morning to someone telling you the devil was dead... wouldn't you demand proof?


That's not what this topic is about. It's about whether it's allowed to show the pics. I thought it wasn't allowed because of the things I read (like that quote).

Quote

Lastly... those being held in Guantanimo bay are considered "Enemy Combatants" NOT POWs. They do not fall under the articles of the Geneva Convention. The United States is affording them MOST of thse courtesies. But they do not have to.


A person is considered a POW if he's a member of an adversary state's armed forces or if he's part of an identifiable militia group that abides by the laws of war. Al-Qaeda members, who neither wear identifying insignia nor abide by the laws of war, probably would not quality. Taliban soldiers, as the armed forces of Afghanistan, may well be entitled to POW status. If there is doubt about a captured fighter's status as a POW, the Geneva Conventions require that he be treated as such until a competent tribunal determines otherwise.

But ok, let's assume there's no doubt, then under the Geneva conventions every "enemy combatant" is still entitled to humane treatment, basic shelter, clothing, food and medical attention. The people in Guantanamo Bay are in chained in small cages with concrete floors and metal roofs. Those cages offer no shelter from wind or rain. Details about sanitary and hygene aren't even available.

Logikal X

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
    • MSN Messenger - tqhx@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - tqhx
    • View Profile
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2003, 03:48:31 pm »
Quote from: "rroo"
The people in Guantanamo Bay are in chained in small cages with concrete floors and metal roofs. Those cages offer no shelter from wind or rain. Details about sanitary and hygene aren't even available.



How do you know this?  I sure as hell hope not  :?
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

rroo

  • Just a day, just an ordinary day
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
    • View Profile
    • http://www.vanessacarlton.info
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2003, 04:09:22 pm »
Quote from: "Logikal X"
Quote from: "rroo"
The people in Guantanamo Bay are in chained in small cages with concrete floors and metal roofs. Those cages offer no shelter from wind or rain. Details about sanitary and hygene aren't even available.



How do you know this?  I sure as hell hope not  :?


From an organisation called the Human Rights Watch. They just sent a letter to miss Rice about it actually.

Logikal X

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
    • MSN Messenger - tqhx@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - tqhx
    • View Profile
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2003, 04:21:29 pm »
if they dont allow them to be viewed or photographed.....how?


ok i wouldnt believe that they dont feed them and let them use a bathroom.  also i dont believe that they treat our prisoners very well......I think people are just generally mean to the people trying to KILL them.  Then again i have no proof either way, im just curious as to if there was something official i could see.
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

Logikal X

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
    • MSN Messenger - tqhx@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - tqhx
    • View Profile
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2003, 04:29:42 pm »
*sigh*
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

PintOGuinness

  • VCUBs
  • Your true colors shown
  • *
  • Posts: 637
  • My face is on milk cartons
    • ICQ Messenger - 3162963
    • AOL Instant Messenger - PintOGuinnessVC
    • View Profile
    • http://www.buckheadyouthorchestra.com
    • Email
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2003, 04:50:37 pm »
Quote from: "rroo"

I know about that article, but if the POW's really were 'protected against public curiosity' they wouldn't have been shown on tv. The footage shot of the POW's often came from journalists who were with the troops during the war. Everything they shot was first screened by some people from the army. They shouldn't have allowed that footage to be used.


I think you would have to watch the footage again.  I can assure you that any footage shown by any journalist imbedded with Allied troops that would have included POWs would have been from a distance so that the prisoners were not identifiable. Or i they were close up, it was not in a compromising position and not due to coercion.  These are both acceptible under Geneva Convention Articles.  What is not acceptible is the express coercion of the POWs to appear against their will for the sole purpose of humiliating them or their government.  That is why Iraq was clearly in violation with their footage shown on AlJazera.

Quote from: "rroo"

So the guy from the senate (see quote I posted before) is wrong?


The way he phrased it.. yes.  But.. the footage was in violation because in addition to the dead soldiers it showed live POWs as well.

Quote from: "rroo"

That's not what this topic is about. It's about whether it's allowed to show the pics. I thought it wasn't allowed because of the things I read (like that quote).


OK... so Like i said.. i think he was incorrect in the way he phrased his quote...

Quote from: "rroo"

A person is considered a POW if he's a member of an adversary state's armed forces or if he's part of an identifiable militia group that abides by the laws of war. Al-Qaeda members, who neither wear identifying insignia nor abide by the laws of war, probably would not quality. Taliban soldiers, as the armed forces of Afghanistan, may well be entitled to POW status. If there is doubt about a captured fighter's status as a POW, the Geneva Conventions require that he be treated as such until a competent tribunal determines otherwise.


You're right that Al-Qaeda fighters get no coverage under geneva convention whatsoever. nor should they. But, due to sheer human nature, I assure you they are afforded even the basics. More than they deserve in my opinion.

Quote from: "rroo"
But ok, let's assume there's no doubt, then under the Geneva conventions every "enemy combatant" is still entitled to humane treatment, basic shelter, clothing, food and medical attention. The people in Guantanamo Bay are in chained in small cages with concrete floors and metal roofs. Those cages offer no shelter from wind or rain. Details about sanitary and hygene aren't even available.


Actually many of those in Guantanimo have been retuned to Afghanistan already...  as recently as last week.  But the United states does have very specific definitions between Enemy Combatants and POWs.  Truly I don't know what they consider the Taliban fighters.  I have seen some of the cages...  honestly, my sympathy runs low... but soon they'll be returnedand honestly they do in fact prbably receive medical attn when needed, and easily are allowed to go the bathroom.  I will do more research.  But I doubt it's as bad as a radical org like "humn rights watch" would like everyone to believe.
-- Jason

Grakthis

  • VCUBs
  • Keepin' secrets at midnight
  • *
  • Posts: 3983
  • Lord Andrew
    • AOL Instant Messenger - Grakthis
    • View Profile
    • http://www.grakthis.com
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2003, 07:35:42 pm »
My comments, now that i'm home;

First, I am not debating the behavior of the US in ANY situation OTHER than the dead bodies of Sadam's children.  I am NOT saying that the US government is not hypocritical.  That would be a VERY difficult argument indeed because the US government CHANGES to so much that it is impossible for it to maintain a SINGLE stance.  We change stances every generation.  That's the beauty of democracy.

As for the quote from the senator or whatever;  just because he is a senator doesn't make him right.  Members of government often make untrue, slanted, angled or spun statements just to convince the masses.  So don't take the word of a politician; read the convention yourself and make your own decisions.

Clearly, the bodies of Sadam's sons are NOT covered under the Geneva convention... that being said, I still think it's wrong.  HOWEVER, even if I think it is wrong, I see the neccesity and i appreciate the decision by the Iraqi government.

As for WHY the Iraqi government had to ASK the us; it's because the film and images were TAKEN by the US.  The iraqi government didn't HAVE them.  They had to ask us for them.  They didn't ask us permission to show them, they asked us if they could HAVE them.

And just as a side note: F' Kate Hudson.  I used to like her, but after her recent comments, i wont be seeing a Kate Hudson movie for a long time.....

...except almost famous... which I already own and is an AMAZING movie inspite of her.
---Andrew
If you are reading this, you are probably on my ignore list.  Click here to return the favor

Wagella Wrote:Yay for Bigotry!!

---Andrew

PintOGuinness

  • VCUBs
  • Your true colors shown
  • *
  • Posts: 637
  • My face is on milk cartons
    • ICQ Messenger - 3162963
    • AOL Instant Messenger - PintOGuinnessVC
    • View Profile
    • http://www.buckheadyouthorchestra.com
    • Email
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2003, 07:46:23 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"

And just as a side note: F' Kate Hudson.  I used to like her, but after her recent comments, i wont be seeing a Kate Hudson movie for a long time...


After how her last movie did at the box office... it appears you're not the only one... ;)
-- Jason

sayyouwould

  • You never thought it'd hurt so bad
  • *****
  • Posts: 2214
    • MSN Messenger - xsayyouwouldx@msn.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - sayyouwould
    • View Profile
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2003, 10:11:20 pm »
It's not illigal to show pictures of dead people on TV. Especially when they put up notes that they are highly graphical.

And Americans don't think they are better then everyone else...it's the other people in the world who think that we think that. Do you guys feel lower then us?
I rely on my illusions to keep me warm at night

Si

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1744
  • Down a Rabbithole
    • View Profile
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2003, 05:32:36 am »
Quote from: "sayyouwould"
It's not illigal to show pictures of dead people on TV. Especially when they put up notes that they are highly graphical.

And Americans don't think they are better then everyone else...it's the other people in the world who think that we think that. Do you guys feel lower then us?


Hmm.
I didn't read everything yet, but what I would like to say
I made this thread, bc I want to know whether it's right that the American government showed pictures of their war enemies while they told other countries not to

How many times do I have to say this?
lol

IT IS NOT ABOUT AMERICANS THINKING THEY ARE BETTER THAN THE REST OF THE WORLD OR WHETHER IT IS 'ILLEGAL' TO SHOW THOSE PICTURES ON TV.

Stick to the main topic, jeez


*goes to read the rest now.
:)



• SHUT  UP  when  I'm  talking  to  you... !
 You  hear  me?  ANSWER  me !! •


Logikal X

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
    • MSN Messenger - tqhx@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - tqhx
    • View Profile
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2003, 05:37:04 am »
heh. i dont know Si i find it all rather interesting  :wink:
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

Si

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1744
  • Down a Rabbithole
    • View Profile
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2003, 05:38:10 am »
I actually don't give a flying rat's ass about politics, LMAO



• SHUT  UP  when  I'm  talking  to  you... !
 You  hear  me?  ANSWER  me !! •


Logikal X

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1900
    • MSN Messenger - tqhx@hotmail.com
    • AOL Instant Messenger - tqhx
    • View Profile
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2003, 05:40:15 am »
i dont care about the political side so much..im interested in the treatment of prisoners.
Quote from: "ReSpektDaFrenziedEVanesSa"
But I have to say I love the feeling of anything going up my butt, it just drives me wild.

Si

  • Fine as dandelions
  • *****
  • Posts: 1744
  • Down a Rabbithole
    • View Profile
Pictures of Saddam's dead sons...
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2003, 05:42:16 am »
I have strawberries, would you like some?

Oh, btw
I am home, lol
I was sneezing all damn day and when I finished my work at 3, my boss told me to go home, but she wouldn't tell anyone, so I get paid normally, heehee
Nice boss
;)

I wonder if there will ever be peace in the world...What do you think?



• SHUT  UP  when  I'm  talking  to  you... !
 You  hear  me?  ANSWER  me !! •