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Author Topic: Religious Debate o.O  (Read 15275 times)

Katia's Lover

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2003, 06:30:54 pm »
Quote from: "loveplasticlove"
I'm an atheist. :)


And the devil.
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LimeTwister

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2003, 06:33:56 pm »
Quote from: "Katia's Lover"
Quote from: "loveplasticlove"
I'm an atheist. :)


And the devil.


a nice devil though...lol

at least she doesn't believe in the devil.
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loveplasticlove

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2003, 06:56:57 pm »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
Quote from: "Katia's Lover"
Quote from: "loveplasticlove"
I'm an atheist. :)


And the devil.


a nice devil though...lol

at least she doesn't believe in the devil.


thank you limey. :)
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Alecs

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2003, 07:12:01 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Quote from: "kev222"
Why should God be bound by the laws of logic He instigated for His creation any more than he should be bound by His own natural laws of science?


Your statement is a complete impossibility.  COMPLETE.  If God CAN eat the burrito, then he didn't make it hot enough.

You're falling back on the generic answer of "We are mortal and we can't understand God"... which is fine, but it's a cop out.  It's not an answer, it's what religious people say when they don't have an answer.

Quote
Somebody might make the argument that God couldn't have made the universe from nothing because it violates the law of conservation of mass-energy. Obviously this argument only applies to a God bound by His own created laws. As the Christian God does fit into this definition domain, the argument is irrelevant to the God of the bible.

In the same way, the laws of logic (Non-Contradiction, Excluded Middle, etc.) are based on observations we have made within creation. For example, it is never observed that an object is both hot and cold at the same time. Any argument based on these laws falls into the same irrelevancy as the previous argument when applied directly to the omnipotent God of the bible.


Logic is not a property of observation.  We didn't obtain logic via induction the way we obtained the rules of science.  Logic isn't based on observation, it is based on the human language.  Even if we had no concept of what Hot and Cold are, if we know they are both measures of heat then we know an object cannot be both at the same time (relative to the same starting point).

The rules of science, by their very nature, CAN BE BROKEN.  If they can't, then they aren't science (See Popper for clarification).  Which is why it is acceptable for God to be able to break the rules of science.

Logic is not a scientific principle, it is a thought process.  If a=b and b=c then a=c.  I don't care if you are or aren't God.  This is a fact of logic.  if a!=c then either a!=b or b!=c.

Now, don't get me wrong Kev.  Feel free to use the "We can't understand it because he is God" line.  But realize that it isn't an answer and is only a cop out.  Whenever science says "the answer is there, we just haven't found it yet" creationists jump all over it.  I think religion should be held to the same standard.


Man Andrew, it appears that you have it all figured out! way to go...

I hate talking about politics, abortion, and religion over the internet. All we do is.. well I can't say offend, because that will just cause another smartass remark.
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tylor2000

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2003, 07:36:42 pm »
Quote from: "kev222"
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Daniel, i think you are asking the wrong questions.  The better question is, if God knows EVERYTHING then he also knows every choice HE will (has already?) make.  Therefore, can God change his mind?  The universal "omnipotence means he can do anything that is not a logical impossibility" theological statement tries to fill this in but it falls short IMHO.

My favorite philisophical question (ala Homer Simpson):  Could God make a burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it?  :wink:


As much as it pains me to disagree with anything Homer Simpson says,

Challenge: Can God heat a burrito so hot that even he can't eat it?
Response: Yes, because God is omnipotent.
Challenge: In that case God isn't omnipotent because he can't eat a sufficiently hot burrito
Response: Yes He can, because God is omnipotent.
Challenge: How can God do both?
Response: Because God is omnipotent

Why should God be bound by the laws of logic He instigated for His creation any more than he should be bound by His own natural laws of science?

Somebody might make the argument that God couldn't have made the universe from nothing because it violates the law of conservation of mass-energy. Obviously this argument only applies to a God bound by His own created laws. As the Christian God does fit into this definition domain, the argument is irrelevant to the God of the bible.

In the same way, the laws of logic (Non-Contradiction, Excluded Middle, etc.) are based on observations we have made within creation. For example, it is never observed that an object is both hot and cold at the same time. Any argument based on these laws falls into the same irrelevancy as the previous argument when applied directly to the omnipotent God of the bible.

-Kev


Well, God could make a burrito so hot he couldn't eat, because he could make it so hot it wouldn't be a burrito anymore.  He would basically heat it out of existance.  But as long as it was a burrito he could eat it.  If you argue about eating the energy or matter in whatever form that were once a burrito, I would say he could.  But I doubt the question is about eating a burrito anymore.

tylor
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Holly

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2003, 08:13:40 pm »
Quote from: "loveplasticlove"
I'm an atheist. :)


lol, nicole, theres a freeway near my house that is sponsered by athiest united and i think of you whenever i see the sign! :)
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i've never been the praying kind
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tylor2000

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2003, 08:14:51 pm »
Quote from: "Holly"
Quote from: "loveplasticlove"
I'm an atheist. :)


lol, nicole, theres a freeway near my house that is sponsered by athiest united and i think of you whenever i see the sign! :)


How do I join?

tylor
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Holly

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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2003, 08:26:06 pm »
Quote from: "tylor2000"
Quote from: "Holly"
Quote from: "loveplasticlove"
I'm an atheist. :)


lol, nicole, theres a freeway near my house that is sponsered by athiest united and i think of you whenever i see the sign! :)


How do I join?

tylor


lol, i dunno
dont know much about it, except they sponser part of a freeway
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"i'm willing to do anything
to calm the storm in my heart
i've never been the praying kind
but lately i've been down upon my knees
not looking for a miracle
just a reason to believe"

loveplasticlove

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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2003, 08:46:07 pm »
sweet! :) you are soo funny Holly! :)

ty you don't join you just are... its the beauty of it all.
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Alecs

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Ecclesiastes
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2003, 08:47:56 pm »
3:1  For everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under heaven:

3:2  A time to be born, And a time to die; A time to plant, And a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3:3  A time to kill, And a time to heal; A time to break down, And a time to build up;

3:4  A time to weep, And a time to laugh; A time to mourn, And a time to dance;

3:5  A time to cast away stones, And a time to gather stones together; A time to embrace, And a time to refrain from embracing;

3:6  A time to seek, And a time to lose; A time to keep, And a time to cast away;

3:7  A time to tear, And a time to sew; A time to keep silence, And a time to speak;

3:8  A time to love, And a time to hate; A time for war, And a time for peace.

3:9  What profit has he who works in that in which he labors?

3:10  I have seen the burden which God has given to the sons of men to be afflicted with.

3:11  He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in their hearts, yet so that man can't find out the work that God has done from the beginning even to the end.

3:12  I know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice, and to do good as long as they live.

3:13  Also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy good in all his labor, is the gift of God.

3:14  I know that whatever God does, it shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it; and God has done it, that men should fear before him.

3:15  That which is has been long ago, and that which is to be has been long ago: and God seeks again that which is passed away.

3:16  Moreover I saw under the sun, in the place of justice, that wickedness was there; and in the place of righteousness, that wickedness was there.

3:17  I said in my heart, "God will judge the righteous and the wicked; for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."

3:18  I said in my heart, "As for the sons of men, God tests them, so that they may see that they themselves are like animals.

3:19  For that which happens to the sons of men happens to animals. Even one thing happens to them. As the one dies, so the other dies. Yes, they have all one breath; and man has no advantage over the animals: for all is vanity.

3:20  All go to one place. All are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

3:21  Who knows the spirit of man, whether it goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, whether it goes downward to the earth?"

3:22  Therefore I saw that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his works; for that is his portion: for who can bring him to see what will be after him?
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spAce

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2003, 08:49:18 pm »
That is some funny shizz-hills
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Holly

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2003, 08:53:33 pm »
when we were learning about those passages in school
we then listened to this song, haha

Turn! Turn! Turn! -The Byrds
To everything, turn, turn, turn.
There is a season, turn, turn, turn.
And a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to be born, a time to die.
A time to plant, a time to reap.
A time to kill, a time to heal.
A time to laugh, a time to weep.

To everything, turn, turn, turn.
There is a season, turn, turn, turn.
And a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to build up, a time to break down.
A time to dance, a time to mourn.
A time to cast away stones.
A time to gather stones together.

To everything, turn, turn, turn.
There is a season, turn, turn, turn.
And a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time of love, a time of hate.
A time of war, a time of peace.
A time you may embrace.
A time to refrain from embracing.

To everything, turn, turn, turn.
There is a season, turn, turn, turn.
And a time to every purpose under heaven.
A time to gain, a time to lose.
A time to rend, a time to sow.
A time for love, a time for hate.
A time for peace, I swear it's not too late.
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"i'm willing to do anything
to calm the storm in my heart
i've never been the praying kind
but lately i've been down upon my knees
not looking for a miracle
just a reason to believe"

Alecs

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chronicles 30:10
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2003, 08:56:23 pm »
The couriers went from town to town in Ephraim and Manasseh, as far as Zebulun, but the people scorned and RIDICULED THEM.

and they always will. :(
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Grakthis

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2003, 09:01:24 pm »
Quote from: "tylor2000"
Well, God could make a burrito so hot he couldn't eat, because he could make it so hot it wouldn't be a burrito anymore.  He would basically heat it out of existance.  But as long as it was a burrito he could eat it.  If you argue about eating the energy or matter in whatever form that were once a burrito, I would say he could.  But I doubt the question is about eating a burrito anymore.

tylor


This entire conversation went right over your head didn't it?

If God is omnipotent and he makes a burrito REALLY hot, then it would STILL BE A BURRITO if God WANTED it to be a burrito.  Otherwise God isn't omnipotent.  You're whole thing about "heating it out of existance" is pure speculation and makes NO SENSE within the bounds of this conversation.

Try not to trow in your 2 cents till you can follow the conversation... kthxbabai.
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Holly

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Religious Debate o.O
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2003, 09:02:59 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
Quote from: "tylor2000"
Well, God could make a burrito so hot he couldn't eat, because he could make it so hot it wouldn't be a burrito anymore.  He would basically heat it out of existance.  But as long as it was a burrito he could eat it.  If you argue about eating the energy or matter in whatever form that were once a burrito, I would say he could.  But I doubt the question is about eating a burrito anymore.

tylor


This entire conversation went right over your head didn't it?

If God is omnipotent and he makes a burrito REALLY hot, then it would STILL BE A BURRITO if God WANTED it to be a burrito.  Otherwise God isn't omnipotent.  You're whole thing about "heating it out of existance" is pure speculation and makes NO SENSE within the bounds of this conversation.

Try not to trow in your 2 cents till you can follow the conversation... kthxbabai.


lmao... i havent read the whole thread, so i have no idea what you're talking about, but the idea of burritos and God is just really funny to me.
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"i'm willing to do anything
to calm the storm in my heart
i've never been the praying kind
but lately i've been down upon my knees
not looking for a miracle
just a reason to believe"
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