Religious Debate o.O

[Blake]

I thought about starting a thread about this a while back, kept putting it off and didn't know if I should, or how some would react.

Well there are a lot of really smart people on here who's opinion's and thoughts on things make alot of sense to me, so I wanna put some of my thoughts down for you all and tell me what you think.

DM's Thoughts Contradicting a god of any form: These are my believes not nessessarily those of nessaholics.com or those who read these forums  :wink: [/i]

Okay, according to "The Bible" "god" is a "fair and just god." How in the world can he claim to be fair with a world like this.

There are mentally ill people, rich people, poor people, smart people, stupid people, good looking people, ugly people, annoying people, "cool" people, and so on.

How can some people be rich, smart, "cool", good looking, and all the good stuff, when there are mentally and physically ill people who live, but don't get to live life?

I mean come on, we all know those perfect people. And we've seen hobo's and mentally ill people, atleast most of us should have. Do they look like their enjoying life?

You can't seriously say yes, because you know your lying if you do.

I mean I rambel like crazy, and I didn't include everything I've wanted in there, but that makes a point I hope.

My next point: Predeterminded Fait. (Sorry I'm not a great speller)

"The Bible" says that were not stringed puppets, moved by what he says to do. Supposivly we have free choices to do as we please.

"The Bible" also says that "god" knows exactly what we are going to do before we do it.

If "god" knows what were going to be doing before we do it, what's the point? Why live, why do what is known to be done? Really it's already done.

I mean if he knows what were going to do, before we do it, he supposivly knows what I'm going to type after this and what it will say, and what I will misspell and everything. The only reason I am still typing this is so you can read it.

I see no point to life now either, I think it is idiotic that "god created us" now. Because he knows what were going to do, why would he create us?

I mean, take this crappy example: You see someone get hit by a car, you watch someone else call 911 on their cell phone. Do you call also? No because they have already done it, you know what is going to happen, and you calling will not make the ambulance come any faster.

I know I'm really rambling and my examples and stuff make sense to me, but I've probably flipped out everyone,  :?

For any of you who do understand though...I'd like to hear what you think. What your religious views and such are too...

While I'm at this...I've decided to "lie low" for a while. I'm having one of those depressing type times like I used to have frequently, and so I start acting quit weird when it happens, so forgive me now for being stupid and ignorant in anyway. I already know I'm a moron.

It's not that I'm leaving the board, or anything, but I'm tired of the way I'm living and the things I do time after time, so I'll be mostly reading posts, and if I feel the need, I'll reply.

I'll be on AIM, but I might not respond, I'm just not having a good period in my "life." So please understand me.

Thank you everyone for your kindness and understanding ahead of time...

[D]

[sayyouwould]

my dad always told me never to talk religon or politics. I think he was wise. I need to learn to listen to him more often    :oops:



edit: not that there is nothing wrong with talking religon, just I don't want to get involved because my views aren't like most peoples. But I love everyones religons!!!!!!

[Dancernl]

"i've learned that there are three things you should never talk about with people: religion, politics, and The Great Pumpkin" ~Linus

[LimeTwister]

mister marko if you need to talk, i am here...or if i am not pm me.

[Gina]

Daniel.. you know my beliefs.. but i agree with you that it doesn't seem right or fair that some ppl seem to have it so good and others suffer so greatly.  It doesn't make sense to me.. and i don't know that it ever will. I'm not going to debate about things because i know you have valid reasons for what you are saying... not that i completely agree with all that you think, but thats alrite.

*i adore you... and i'm always here for you and i hope you know that, so pleeease talk to me sweetie.  I know life doesn't always treat you fairly, and I honestly don't know why, you deserve the best..* <3

[Logikal X]

i'll say nothing but that i have faith

[Grakthis]

"i've learned that there are three things you should never talk about with people: religion, politics, and The Great Pumpkin" ~Linus

Best.  Peanuts Quote.  Evaaaaaar!!11!11elventyone567^0

Edit: @Pete - that's the simplest and most complete religious position I have ever heard.  Not being sarchastic either, I'm dead serious.  There is no better basis for religion than simple faith.

[Dancernl]

"i've learned that there are three things you should never talk about with people: religion, politics, and The Great Pumpkin" ~Linus

Best.  Peanuts Quote.  Evaaaaaar!!11!11elventyone567^0

word

Edit: @Pete - that's the simplest and most complete religious position I have ever heard.  Not being sarchastic either, I'm dead serious.  There is no better basis for religion than simple faith.

agreed, nicely said pete.

[Will]

First of all, when the Bible says that God is a just God, that's his definition of just. He defines just. Your statement falls into the trap that Christianity really cares too much about this life. So what if your life sucks? You deal with it correctly, you will have your rewards. Think of the parable of the talents here if you want to know a bit more about this.

Secondly, with the predestination thing. Ok, God knows what's next. You still can watch a movie after seeing it before and knowing the ending, right?

I'm sorry. Maybe I'll go into more detail tomorrow. Just got home and it's too late to be doing this.

[Wagella]

Religion is a cruch used to fill an empty part in peoples lives.

Notice how very few rich people are followers of religions?

(Barring Scientology of course, with which I am currently formulating plans to destroy.)

[kev222]

Religion is a cruch used to fill an empty part in peoples lives.

Atheism is a crutch to alleviate the implications of the existence of God.

Notice how very few rich people are followers of religions?

They probably feel that they have the most to alleviate.

-Kev

[Grakthis]

Religion is a cruch used to fill an empty part in peoples lives.

Notice how very few rich people are followers of religions?

(Barring Scientology of course, with which I am currently formulating plans to destroy.)

That's not because religion is a crutch.. that's because religion discourage the kinds of activities that tend to make you rich.

Now ORGANIZED religion OFTEN is a crutch for people who aren't strong enough to support their own faith and needs the agreement of others to help them.  Because, to be honest, how many people do you know who are part of an organized religion that actually agree 100% with the teachings of that religion?  So if you don't agree, then why be a part of it?

But personal religion is no more a crutch than science or philosophy.  It's a set of beliefs to explain things that would otherwise be unpossible to understand.

EDIT @ DM.

Daniel, i think you are asking the wrong questions.  The better question is, if God knows EVERYTHING then he also knows every choice HE will (has already?) make.  Therefore, can God change his mind?  The universal "omnipotence means he can do anything that is not a logical impossibility" theological statement tries to fill this in but it falls short IMHO.

My favorite philisophical question (ala Homer Simpson):  Could God make a burrito so hot even he couldn't eat it?  :wink:

[rosieposy87]

'The Problem of Evil' is exactly what we're doing in philosophy at the moment. I'll add more when i've finished the topic. You could however say that evil is just the absence of good (as St.Augustine did).

Secondly, the problem of him knowing everything. This also runs into the type of creation you believe in, you either are a creationist, you believe in the timeless creation of the world- the idea that God is outside of time, or you believe in the continuous creation of the world- for instance that Abraham's answer to god changed the fate of the world- if so that would mean he didn't know the fate of everyone on earth, he created it according to what certain people have said. Oh its all so confusing! And i have to do a piece of coursework on this!

[Grakthis]

'The Problem of Evil' is exactly what we're doing in philosophy at the moment. I'll add more when i've finished the topic. You could however say that evil is just the absence of good (as St.Augustine did).

Secondly, the problem of him knowing everything. This also runs into the type of creation you believe in, you either are a creationist, you believe in the timeless creation of the world- the idea that God is outside of time, or you believe in the continuous creation of the world- for instance that Abraham's answer to god changed the fate of the world- if so that would mean he didn't know the fate of everyone on earth, he created it according to what certain people have said. Oh its all so confusing! And i have to do a piece of coursework on this!

Ah! But if God is outside of time, then God cannot change.  Because Time IS a measure of change.

If God cannot change then god is not omnipotent because he is incapable of something  :idea:

[rosieposy87]

'The Problem of Evil' is exactly what we're doing in philosophy at the moment. I'll add more when i've finished the topic. You could however say that evil is just the absence of good (as St.Augustine did).

Secondly, the problem of him knowing everything. This also runs into the type of creation you believe in, you either are a creationist, you believe in the timeless creation of the world- the idea that God is outside of time, or you believe in the continuous creation of the world- for instance that Abraham's answer to god changed the fate of the world- if so that would mean he didn't know the fate of everyone on earth, he created it according to what certain people have said. Oh its all so confusing! And i have to do a piece of coursework on this!

Ah! But if God is outside of time, then God cannot change.  Because Time IS a measure of change.

If God cannot change then god is not omnipotent because he is incapable of something  :idea:

Exactly! And it would also make him unable to change form, wouldn't it? So he wouldn't be incorporeal? But theeen if he could change from being temporal to outside of time, wouldn't that stop him from being immutable? So, that wouldn't make him the God of Classical Theism anymore would it? eh?

Oh i am SO confused. I have to write 3000 words on this! *shakes fist* Bloody philosophy!