Poll

What would you vote?

Yes
0 (0%)
No
1 (50%)
Not sure yet
1 (50%)
I wouldn't vote
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 2

Voting closed: October 01, 2004, 03:52:21 pm

Author Topic: European Constitution  (Read 2236 times)

neos

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European Constitution
« on: October 01, 2004, 03:52:21 pm »
I know this is a Europe only issue so few of you non-Europeans (and few Europeans even... I know there's a lot of indifference towards this, esp in places like the UK) will be interested. Just wanted to see whether any of you are motivated by the thought of having a European Constitution at all.

I have heard there is going to be a referendum in Spain around February and have given it a lot of thought. Even though I am and have always been a firm supporter of the European Union and its political projects, I am not quite sure I want to vote yes to this. I really really want a European Constitution, there is no way the EU can go forward without eventually having one (even though it's basically just another name for a new treaty that would mix all existing ones) but I don't like the conditions in which this constitution would be signed, and the position it would leave Spain in. When Aznar's party was still in government I completely agreed, but now with the new socialist government we have just given in to France and Germany's wishes and I am not sure I want that reflected on something as long lasting as a Constitution.

Anyway, I could go on rambling about this forever... but does anybody else have an opinion?

In case nobody knows what I'm talking about here's a link to a site about it
http://www.unizar.es/euroconstitucion/Home.htm

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Will

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European Constitution
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2004, 05:03:38 pm »
If I were a member state, I would never sign up with this thing. Too much soverignty surrendered. This is more or less what the US had in 1776 under the Articles of Confederation. It is gonna be insufficent to really do much of anything and there will be people pressing for something stronger. Boom. No more Germany. No more Spain. No more France. Hello European Union, sovereign nation-state. Hello federalism run amok.

Also, the wording in general is ambiguous and verbose at the same time. Quite a feat, if you ask me. Reminds me strangely of Canadian law (that's a bad thing, imnsho). If you like the law meaning whatever the courts feel like it should mean according to the PC fad of the day, sure, this is a fine constitution.
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rosieposy87

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European Constitution
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2004, 02:39:56 am »
In principle, i would agree with it- but thats mainly as a 'screw you' to the millions of euro-skeptics here. I think that the advance to a supranational Europe is inevitable- and thats why people here must accept that the Euro is coming whether we like it or not. I am so fed up of the anti Europe press here, its just getting ridiculous- on the front page of The Daily Mail the other day there was an article about how soon we won't be allowed to compete as 'Great Britain' in the Olympics but under the European flag. BULLSHIT. It made me so seethingly angry! People in this country don't realise what the E.U has done for them.

 So in general i agree with the concept, but not with the final details- Britain is in a very different position to the other countries involved due to the 'special relationship' and the fact that we are an island. The extension of QMV also worries me- because our veto is being weakened. I'm also unsure about the so called 'democratic deficit' and exactly how the constitution would help this.

Ooh and what do you think about Turkey?
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HappyZen

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European Constitution
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2004, 10:29:24 am »
Quote from: "rosieposy87"
Ooh and what do you think about Turkey?


You mean Turkey joining the EU?
Turkey is a whole other kettle of fish.
It's not just a country. It's a country that as much as it tries to be all secular and everything so isn't ...

Strange because it paved the way for countries such as France and Italy to ban wearing of religious symbols by banning them FIRST to the point where women were NOT ALLOWED TO WORK if they HAD any sort of head scarfs on. Strange coming from a nation where 99% are Muslim. This is neither democratic (where's the freedom of speech and expression?) nor religious ... so I never got the idea behind that one ... was it an over compensation maybe? (don't get me wrong, I am pro-freedom of expression, but the covering of the WHOLE face? please. You're better off staying home hullo!!! But just a head scarf? I woudn't ever wear it, because while not very beautiful *cough*ugly*cough* I am too vain, but the concept is good! Not judging you by your outter appearance, hair, revealing/tight clothes ... and covering up force ppl to look beyond that to the brains behind the beauty ... no exceptions everyone is equal!!! )

For me Turkey represents hope because it IS progressive it's a semi-democracy and it shows that you can be religious, while maintaining your place in the world. You don't have to give up religion to fit it, because if you're a proper religion-ist then these things should go hand in hand. Freedom of speech human rights blah blah ...

However, there's so much to do, and is it the EU's job to baby sit countries and help them find their feet? I don't think so. Not directly by allowing Turkey to BE A PART of the EU. Maybe when Turkey is solid in it's identity ... and they pick Tayyib as their leader ;-)

But it would be nice ... it would inspire all the other dispicable countries (Middle Eastern ones I mean) to maybe find some inspiration and clean up their countries? One can dream.
Though the EU represents a dream ... 98437432578358 nations different cultrues ... united by regional agendas ...

But for now .... It would be really good for Turkey, but not so good for the EU.

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neos

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« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2004, 10:40:01 am »
Will, a Federal Europe has been a project since the EU was created and it is an eventual goal, but I doubt it's happening any time soon. Take for a start the fact that at least 5 European countries are monarchies right now, do you think those member states would be willing to change their form of state in order to fit into European standards? I doubt it. So if a Federal Europe is happening, we still have a lot to progress until we get there. It would be too abrupt a change for a population that feels more and more disconnected from European project as years go by. That's why I'm not worried about it just yet.

Quote
Also, the wording in general is ambiguous and verbose at the same time. Quite a feat, if you ask me. Reminds me strangely of Canadian law (that's a bad thing, imnsho). If you like the law meaning whatever the courts feel like it should mean according to the PC fad of the day, sure, this is a fine constitution.


I have to agree with that. The problem with this Constitution is that decisions had to be made, there were options and some had to be put aside, but nobody was willing to give up their own interests so we ended having an ambiguous text and postponing important reforms that needed to be made as to get weight of their shoulders, but really creating a bigger problem that will have to be solved by the next generation - which is only even worse, since the Convention was celebrated before the 10 new members states incorporated, and now the changes will have to be made with theirs and god knows how many more countries' opinions (depending on when changes actually take place)

Quote from: "rosieposy87"
In principle, i would agree with it- but thats mainly as a 'screw you' to the millions of euro-skeptics here. I think that the advance to a supranational Europe is inevitable- and thats why people here must accept that the Euro is coming whether we like it or not. I am so fed up of the anti Europe press here, its just getting ridiculous- on the front page of The Daily Mail the other day there was an article about how soon we won't be allowed to compete as 'Great Britain' in the Olympics but under the European flag. BULLSHIT. It made me so seethingly angry! People in this country don't realise what the E.U has done for them.


Funny, cos for me it's quite the opposite. In principle I would agree 100%. You know me, I'm the most pro-European Spaniard ever. I wouldn't have had any doubts about voting yes if PP had still been in power. Now with socialists in government I would be able to vote no just as a "screw you" to them. They act like the PP are was all anti-European, pushing back the Constitution and say THEY are the ones who are going to make Spain a proper EU-integrated country, when in fact PP was blocking the Constitution cos they were defending our country's interests (gained in Nice) against France and Germany's idea of them being the only two countries who count in Europe (and all decisions having to go through them). Now the socialist government has given in to France and Germany's interests and we're bound to lose power in the EU. Only they don't explain that. They just put themselves as the saviours of the Constitution, which pisses me off so much I am considering going against my pro-European nature and voting no.

Quote from: "rosieposy87"
The extension of QMV also worries me- because our veto is being weakened. I'm also unsure about the so called 'democratic deficit' and exactly how the constitution would help this.

Ooh and what do you think about Turkey?


Really? QMV weakens the UK? I thought you were the only ones who stayed more or less the same. It benefited France and Germany, and weakened Spain and Poland, amongst others, but I'd heard the UK stayed the same.

Turkey... ha. Tricky. I have always been against it. Turkey is not Europe (even if they take part in Eurovision, but so does Israel :P) full stop. If it depended on me, there would be no discussion. The problem is negotiations have already started, so there's no getting out of it now.

I went to a lecture by the ex-Minister of Foreign Affairs who said she thought it was very benefitial for Europe cos it opened doors towards the East. Then a MEP on another lecture talked about how in European circles nobody really wanted Turkey in the EU so there kept appearing new conditions they had to meet to make it more difficult, then postponed negotiations until 2009 and so on... but the problem is there. I hope it doesn't work out, but it would be odd, it would be the first time negotiations with a country break and go nowhere, cos as much as there have been problems negotiating and meeting standards before, those countries have eventually joined.

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