Author Topic: This Is Very Important To Me  (Read 62783 times)

tricia

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« Reply #105 on: February 27, 2004, 03:42:53 pm »
People before Jesus offered animal sacrifices.  

If you believe God doesn't influence every part of your life, that's fine.  Your analogy works to a point.  It's like having a child, loving him/her unconditionally, and then having him/her turn his back on you and never coming back.  Those of us who have stayed feel him in every part of our lives.  He's never left me.
I think you underestimate the level of my sneakiness

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« Reply #106 on: February 27, 2004, 03:43:43 pm »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
It's not the Child's fault you were not there.

God is still with us, with the holy spirit.

Quote from: "LimeTwister"
Though on the other hand, there were people before there was Jesus, are they in Hell?

Before Christ, sins were forgiven with the blood of a lamb by the Covenent of Grace, think of it like a symol or promise of what was to come. Once Christ died, he was the ultimate sacrifice cleansing all the sins of those who believe.

LimeTwister

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« Reply #107 on: February 27, 2004, 03:48:37 pm »
and what about Jews and Muslims, they believe in the same God. They devote their life to God, but to Chritians can not get into heaven because they don't believe Jesus is the savior.

(sorry, just asking random questions, and wondering ya'lls opinions on this one)

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« Reply #108 on: February 27, 2004, 03:53:49 pm »
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
and what about Jews and Muslims, they believe in the same God. They devote their life to God, but to Chritians can not get into heaven because they don't believe Jesus is the savior.

correct, its only with the blood of Christ that we can be saved.
Remove that vital element, and you are left with mankind on his own with sin and no way to cleanse it. We would be a world of the damned. But God loved the world enough that he gave his son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

(not quite quoting scripture but a paraphrase)

tricia

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« Reply #109 on: February 27, 2004, 03:57:12 pm »
If I'm not mistaken, all major monotheistic religions say theirs is the only way to God...it's not just a Christian thing.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

That's usually the verse kids first memorize.
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Grakthis

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« Reply #110 on: February 27, 2004, 04:01:08 pm »
Quote from: "blackvulture"
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
It's not the Child's fault you were not there.

God is still with us, with the holy spirit.

Quote from: "LimeTwister"
Though on the other hand, there were people before there was Jesus, are they in Hell?

Before Christ, sins were forgiven with the blood of a lamb by the Covenent of Grace, think of it like a symol or promise of what was to come. Once Christ died, he was the ultimate sacrifice cleansing all the sins of those who believe.


I put this question to a friend of mine who is a divinity student and here is the response....

"The Old Testament has no Hell; it has "sheol", which is simply a "realm of the dead". People were usually thought of as sleeping there; the New Testament frequently refers to those who have "fallen asleep" when it means those who have died. So, it's not so much they "went to hell" as they were just *dead*.

It's also worth noting that it's not entirely clear *when* people go to Heaven; Revelation makes it clear that some of the Saints are already there, but also has people making it in only at the End Of Things when the Book of Life is opened. There's also the apparent conflict between Jesus's statements about "Not all those who say to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of the Father" and his statement on the cross to the thief that "This day you shall be with me in paradise". The most common reconciliation between these two ideas is to point out that, since the End Times happen at the "End of Time", time functions oddly, and so it is possible for those who enter Heaven at the End of Times to *already* be there, despite the fact that the Earth has yet to end. Another possible reconciliation is it seemed like "this day" to the thief, because he didn't experience anything between his death and the Ressurection of the Dead (so that it seemed to him to be the same "day" as when he had died). The fine points of this doctrine have essentially no practical application, so it's not really very important. Suffice to say, though, it's clear that time acts kinda quirky when you're dealing with things that happen after time ends.  

The traditional interpretation, though, which has some possible Scriptural support fot it, is that when Jesus descended into hell he released the Old Testament Saints, and this was part of what it meant to "break the chains of death".

Hope this clears things up a little.

Grace & Peace,
Daniel "
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« Reply #111 on: February 27, 2004, 04:04:29 pm »
Quote from: "blackvulture"
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
and what about Jews and Muslims, they believe in the same God. They devote their life to God, but to Chritians can not get into heaven because they don't believe Jesus is the savior.

correct, its only with the blood of Christ that we can be saved.
Remove that vital element, and you are left with mankind on his own with sin and no way to cleanse it. We would be a world of the damned. But God loved the world enough that he gave his son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life.

(not quite quoting scripture but a paraphrase)


BV, are you not Catholic?  Are you a different branch of Christianity?

Because the Catholic church's OFFICIAL stance is that you CAN make it to heaven without believing in Jesus.  IN fact, you can make it to heaven without believing in God.  As long as you live your life according to the guidelines God places on man.
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« Reply #112 on: February 27, 2004, 04:12:10 pm »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
BV, are you not Catholic?  Are you a different branch of Christianity?
Because the Catholic church's OFFICIAL stance is that you CAN make it to heaven without believing in Jesus.  IN fact, you can make it to heaven without believing in God.  As long as you live your life according to the guidelines God places on man.

I'm not Catholic, I'm Protestant (Christian Reformed denomination to be exact.)
And a great many things got distorted in the Catholic church throughout the middleages (like what you state above).
The Protestant movement brought the church back to what is in the Word alone.
It's not priests that forgive sins, its not with "acts" like 400 hail mary's that forgive sins, its only through the blood of Christ.
It's what I believe.

LimeTwister

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« Reply #113 on: February 27, 2004, 04:15:50 pm »
thanks Andrew and Daniel...that cleared some up a little.

Grakthis

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« Reply #114 on: February 27, 2004, 04:17:23 pm »
Quote from: "blackvulture"
Quote from: "Grakthis"
BV, are you not Catholic?  Are you a different branch of Christianity?
Because the Catholic church's OFFICIAL stance is that you CAN make it to heaven without believing in Jesus.  IN fact, you can make it to heaven without believing in God.  As long as you live your life according to the guidelines God places on man.

I'm not Catholic, I'm Protestant (Christian Reformed denomination to be exact.)
And a great many things got distorted in the Catholic church throughout the middleages (like what you state above).
The Protestant movement brought the church back to what is in the Word alone.
It's not priests that forgive sins, its not with "acts" like 400 hail mary's that forgive sins, its only through the blood of Christ.
It's what I believe.


K.  Works for me.  I just wanted a clarification so I knew the basis for your religious beliefs.
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snapple936

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« Reply #115 on: February 27, 2004, 10:07:28 pm »
Quote from: "blackvulture"

It's not priests that forgive sins, its not with "acts" like 400 hail mary's that forgive sins, its only through the blood of Christ.



wow.  as a catholic, i find that comment extremely offensive.  i'm not even a "strict" catholic (though, as a sidenote, i once was... i'm exploring and learning right now.. but that's a different story. i attend church weekly).  just because catholics do things differently than protestants, it doesn't mean they are wrong.  and it's NOT "acts" and the priests that forgive our sins- it's God working THROUGH the priest to absolve us of sins.  

again i repeat, believe what you want.  but please be a little sensitive in how you phrase a very sacred and important part of other people's religion.

kelley
...i'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, the sinners are much more fun, you know that only the good

kev222

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« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2004, 01:55:11 am »
Quote from: "Grakthis"
No.  This is defensive rhetoric.  And you know it.  Say whatever you have to to help you sleep at night.... but it comes down to ONE SIMPLE STATEMENT.

Defense of what? Not sleep at night due to what? Go and read my post in response to Rosie, I agree with you that people should have the same legal rights regardless of sexuality. I just think your bigot accusation carries no weight. People can have plenty of other reasons (right or wrong) for supporting the ammendment other than a desire to "punigh" "fags". The issue should be argued properly.

-Kev

rosieposy87

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« Reply #117 on: February 28, 2004, 02:07:46 am »
Quote from: "kev222"
Quote from: "rosieposy87"
Bible is inerrant- which is clearly not the case. If you believe something, why do others have to?

Equally, why does Kev have to believe what you/others believe (that the bible is not inerrant and that he shouldn't accept it as the absolute standard for morality)?


 I never asked BV to believe what others believed. I simply asked him to consider the notion that what he believes is not accepted by everyone else. If he believes the Bible is inerrant i respect his beliefs- but do not impress your accepted view of morality onto others.



Quote from: "kev222"

Quote from: "rosieposy87"
'Moral fabric'- what a weak defence. What is 'moral fabric' BV? You could argue that so many things have degraded 'moral fabric' in America: alcohol, plastic surgery, even other religions because they do not uphold your moral beliefs- but do you protest and whine against them? NO.

Whether or not he protests those other things is irrelevant. Even if he gets drunk every night and has had plastic surgery every year, it doesn't make his arguments in this area any more or less valid.

-Kev


 I don't think it is irrelevant. I think if you choose to argue about 'moral fabric' then you need to be clear that one issue does not degrade it alone- and go after the proposal of gay marriages for 'bringing down the tone' of your country. Its relative in my mind.

P.S don't use your silly "two crimes were committed" argument in reply  :razz:
"I'm all about the wordplay."

kev222

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« Reply #118 on: February 28, 2004, 02:22:19 am »
Quote from: "rosieposy87"
I don't think it is irrelevant. I think if you choose to argue about 'moral fabric' then you need to be clear that one issue does not degrade it alone- and go after the proposal of gay marriages for 'bringing down the tone' of your country. Its relative in my mind.

Well just imagine for a moment that two crimes were committed...

Quote from: "rosieposy87"
P.S don't use your silly "two crimes were committed" argument in reply  :razz:

Doh.

-Kev

LimeTwister

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« Reply #119 on: February 28, 2004, 05:57:11 am »
Quote from: "jlmusicchick"
Quote from: "LimeTwister"
Though on the other hand, there were people before there was Jesus, are they in Hell?


Dante tried to answer that in The Inferno. He said that they were in a sort of Limbo place, kind of like Purgetory. They weren't punished, but they weren't in Heaven either. Though it's only fiction, so not really any factual information, but still a question that's been bugging me too.


I read part of The Inferno in class. (just last week...only sections of it though lol because my teacher needs to stuff 1000 essays into our lives before next tuesday  :roll: )

He read the 9 stages of Hell...or what not...and in there it mentioned that if you were born before Jesus (or something along those lines) you went to hell and read the punishments..

Some of those punishments were off the wall "run around with a flag in your hand while being stung by insects for eternity."

I don't know if I believe there is a Hell.  I think it more of a state of mind that was made up by humans or Earth itself.

Quote from: "Andrew"
Two things. Jesus was not Gods "friend". Jesus is God. THe trinity explains this nicely.


I was trying to place an example, because obviously you can't turn into someone else without the help of like plastic surgery.

**Editing this four years later: Holy crap, I really wish I would not have posted this.  It sounds incredibly stupid.**