abortion

[GeNuInEwAnNaBe69]

Ok, Kev, I'm in the mood for a fight so I'll respond.

Of course this is a feminist issue, feminism is defined as the "Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes".  A man will always have the right to choose what he wants done to his own body.  With the addition of an unborn child, the issue becomes different for women.  

That baby is a part of the woman's anatomy during pregnancy.

So, as long as that decision of whether or not the government should dictate the next 18 years of your life and decide whether or not you have the right to your own body, should be left up to the woman.  

Also, your attempt at a working example was laughable at best:

Hey, I'm not pro-theft, but I believe everyone should have the legal right to steal everyone elses stuff.

all I have to say is Huh?

In special cases of rape or if the child is known to be plagued with a genetic disorder, it comes down to the mother--the caretaker for the child--if she will continue with the birth or not.

"a woman has the right to her body" pro-abortion propaganda misses the point completely

I think you're missing the point.  You, as a man, cannot possibly even begin to fathom the connection a mother has with their child.  I think it is wrong for any life to leave the world, but if that life is going to grow up either not having a working family life or not having the mental capacity to function like the average human being I think that the mother, with whom the child will be entrusted to has the final decision.

And, if you're planning on retorting with the adoption is an option shpeal, take a second to think about it.  How overcrowded and underfunded would the orphanages be?

But, ultimately this opinion comes from your environment.  As I said I come from a very feminist household, always being told that a woman has the right--just like a man does--to their own body.  This is a feminism issue no matter how hard ultra-conservative types try to use their own propoganda to twist it their own way.

[Steveau]

and I know an argument is that sometimes people have abortions because they know they can't give the baby a good life. But there are tons of people who are waiting to adopt a baby.

I know people say they want to adopt babies but when it comes down to it they want to adopt babies that they think are perfect and if they're too old they don't want them so there are plenty of them that never get adopted. The perfect solution to the problem of abortion is to have everybody sign up as either pro-choice or pro-life and the pro-lifers can contribute to a fund to raise the unwanted babies in the world. They can call it a Life Tax. I don't think they'd be as adamant about it if that were enforced.

[Will]

GeNuInEwAnNaBe69, you can go on and on all you want about how it is a woman's right to control her body. That is not a rebuttal to the argument that although a woman may be making a decision affecting her own body, she is also imposing her will on a body that is not her own. How can those two positions be reconciled? You certainly don't seem to want to try.

[GeNuInEwAnNaBe69]

Will again, men are entitled to their opinion on this, but honestly I think that a woman has a better grip on it.  I'm sorry to tell you that this is a womens rights issue.  We are talking about unborn child, the prefix being the key part of that word phrase.  This is a child that could not survive outside of the womb.  For those of you who are not seeing the connection, it might help to say that the womb is inside of the mother!  The womb, AKA the uterus is inside of the mother and is a constant in her anatomy.  Thus, the infant's lifesource is the mother.  for the sake of being repetative, the mother is what nurishes the unborn, there's that prefix again, child so that it can be born.  

I really am convinced that I cannot sway your views, either you Will or Kev, and I respect that.  I know that in a civilized society, difference of opinion are not only widespread and varied but also necessary for that society's function.  This is an issue that I feel very strongly about and I was happy to see this thread.  So once more

If we cannot even agree on what we're arguing about, there is not much of an argument.

I personally do not believe in the overturning of Roe V. Wade--if you don't agree, I would love to hear your opinion it would keep my arguing skills up to par.

Ps.  I still love Jon Stewert

[kev222]

Of course this is a feminist issue, feminism is defined as the "Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes".  A man will always have the right to choose what he wants done to his own body.  With the addition of an unborn child, the issue becomes different for women.

That baby is a part of the woman's anatomy during pregnancy.

So, as long as that decision of whether or not the government should dictate the next 18 years of your life and decide whether or not you have the right to your own body, should be left up to the woman.

Feminism has achieved a great deal of good in the world but it goes too far on occasion. Abortion is one of those occasions. You just said it yourself, men and women are different. As such, "equality of the sexes" becomes a square peg into a round hole, the fact is that the sexes are biologically unequal. A pregnant woman has another person's body and will to consider. I'm sure that you've rationalised the termination of another person in your own mind with strange reasoning like "The womb, AKA the uterus is inside of the mother", "a child that could not survive outside of the womb", "the infant's lifesource is the mother", "the mother is what nurishes the unborn", etc. But there's really no need for such rationalisations. The mother isn't consigned to 18 years of unwanted parenting as you say, the child can go up for adoption and society will pick up the tab for the sexually irresponsible as it does for everything else. That's why I say it isn't a feminist issue. The woman has little, if anything, to lose from the birth of the child, the child has everything to lose from it's termination. The issue of abortion has everything to do with the child and little to do with the mother. Nobody wants to ban abortion because they want to deny the rights of women, they want to protect the rights of the unborn child. The only people who want to make this a gender rights issue are feminists with a chip on their shoulder, who seem to resent the position that nature has put them in as they strive for absolute equality at any and all cost. A target equality that, when it comes to abortion, is absurd and utterly selfish in light of our natural biological inequalities.

Also, your attempt at a working example was laughable at best:

Hey, I'm not pro-theft, but I believe everyone should have the legal right to steal everyone elses stuff.

all I have to say is Huh?

So, your counter-arguments are "your attempt at a working example was laughable at best" and "all I have to say is Huh?". As those aren't actually arguments, my statement stands, the terms pro-choice and pro-abortion are synonymous in any sense that matters.

And, if you're planning on retorting with the adoption is an option shpeal, take a second to think about it.  How overcrowded and underfunded would the orphanages be?

Of course a greater burden would be placed on the orphanage system, which would require extra funding. But that is not a good pro-abortion argument any more than an overcrowded and underfunded prison system is a good argument to legalise the most popular crimes. It often costs money to do the right thing. Personally I'd be happy to criminalise abortion and support a larger/better adoption system with my tax money.

But, ultimately this opinion comes from your environment.  As I said I come from a very feminist household, always being told that a woman has the right--just like a man does--to their own body.  This is a feminism issue no matter how hard ultra-conservative types try to use their own propoganda to twist it their own way.

No, my opinions are not dictated by my environment, nor are they a result of blindly following what I've always been told. I form my opinions using my own free thought. In fact, both my parents, although not feminists, are pro-abortion. I've had this same argument with them countless times.

If we cannot even agree on what we're arguing about, there is not much of an argument.

I know exactly what we're arguing about. A) that abortion is/isn't a gender rights issue and B) that pro-choice is/isn't the same as pro-abortion.

I don't think that I'll sway your views either. I argue because it's fun.

[Will]

Just to add another note, both my parents are staunchly pro-abortion. One is a registered Republican. One is a registered Democrat. I myself, the contrarian I am, am a registered Libertarian. I am not blindly following my parents' beliefs. My beliefs come from me thinking issues out, following some very basic moral and political principles.

[PianoGirl4444]

Being a woman who personally NEVER wants to push an 8-pound baby out of her vagina (and I feel VERY strongly about this), my opinion is that a male's opinion doesn't really matter.  Who are you to tell me I HAVE to go through that kind of pain if I don't want to?  I cry when I stub my toe!  I don't need 9 months of carrying around something inside my belly that will suck the life out of me, either.  The female body suffers immensely from childbirth.  How can you argue with that?

[Will]

If you don't want to have a baby, don't be sexually irresponsible.

Furthermore, moral arguments from males are not invalid. In case you haven't noticed, men aren't the only ones who make the anti-abortion moral arguments. Often, women make the same moral arguments that men make. In any case, saying men can't participate in the debate is a logical fallacy known as ad hominem. Try again.

[PianoGirl4444]

Even in normal circumstances (ie NOT a rape), while using birth control, a woman can get pregnant.  And it's quite common.  That is not her fault.  I'm pro-choice.  Big time.

You can have sex responsibly and STILL get pregnant.  What do you suggest a woman who doesn't want to have a baby should do in that scenerio?

[Will]

Even in normal circumstances (ie NOT a rape), while using birth control, a woman can get pregnant.  And it's quite common.  That is not her fault.  I'm pro-choice.  Big time.

You can have sex responsibly and STILL get pregnant.  What do you suggest a woman who doesn't want to have a baby should do in that scenerio?

Birth control is very reliable when used correctly. According to every study I've ever read on the subject, in the majority of cases where birth control has failed and an abortion is sought, contraceptives were not used consistently and/or correctly. In the case of condom failure, the morning after pill is quite effective as well.

[GeNuInEwAnNaBe69]

I have also used the same argument that PianoGirl is using, that as a man you will never have an equal understanding of the pain involved in birthing a child or the emotional and physical strain put onto a woman.  I know that women will also be what they enjoy calling "pro-life" and I think that I would be more open and willing to hear their opinions than a man's.  It would be the same as me trying to descibe what an erection feels like in full detail--it is one of the things that I know I cannot possibly accurately feel and I know that and I respect that and so I move on.  

I also, even at my relatively young age, know what it is like to be treated less fairly that the boys--who are blind to it.  I have personally seen outright disregard for Title 9 in my own school, so for you who say that "feminism has gone too far" is misleading.  Many of its fights have not gone far enough and are ignored.

And, perhaps, I never made my beliefs clear.  If the woman finds out that her child will be at some disadvantage (ie. mental or physical disorder, or AIDS perhaps) or if that child will be born into an unloving household, that child will grow up finding it difficult to be a normal functioning member of society.  That is not fair to the child.  Abortion should not be used in place of safe sex or be seen as an imediate option, it should be a last resort but a resort nonetheless.

But that is not a good pro-abortion argument any more than an overcrowded and underfunded prison system is a good argument to legalise the most popular crimes.

May I point out that our criminal justice systems have already done that.  Personal example: One of my neighbors, who was not a minor at the time, stabbed someone in the chest.  He was sent to prison for one year and is now home.  Our armed forces, who recently overturned the rule that a new entry must have a clean record free of criminal activity, has just accepted him.  We have lowered our standards quite a bit in the American Correctional system.

When abortion was illegal in the early 20th century, women who desperately wanted or needed, yes I said needed, the procedure would resort to unsafe and dirty environments to do so.  Many of these women died of severe infections.

The fact that you are saying that this is not a gender rights issue is just unbelievable, it is something that affects one gender and is being decided on by people of the oposite sex.  I know what you are trying to say, that it affects one sex so you cannot have equality, but I don't see the big picture that way.  You, as men, will never have the physical responsibility of birthing a child, a woman will.  Granted.  But, as long as that child is a part of the woman, is living off of the woman, if that woman gets pregent in a situation where she had no control, a rape maybe, you (as in the "pro-life"rs are going to tell her that she has to go through 9 months of agony and suffering, have the unwanted child, and then you suggest adoption.  Adoption is not a working option in all cases so to use a blanket answer is shameful.  

Now the naming thing, if you guys can sugarcoat you claim that you are "pro-life" then we can say that we are "pro-choice".  Pro-life is misleading especially since President Bush, who has called himself "pro-life" started a war with no reason, at least not one that was true, we can call ourselves "pro-choice", or we can make bumper stickers that say, "pro-life by choice" whatever you prefer.

I think that this is a states rights issue.

Jon Stewert is an American Treasure.

And yes, I also enjoy arguing quite a bit which is why I have perpetuated this one.

[kev222]

so for you who say that "feminism has gone too far" is misleading.

I said that feminism goes too far on occasion (specifically on the issue of abortion), not that feminism has gone too far. You've even quote marked it as if I actually said it, even though the quote appears nowhere in my post. Now that's misleading.

If the woman finds out that her child will be at some disadvantage (ie. mental or physical disorder, or AIDS perhaps) or if that child will be born into an unloving household, that child will not grow up to be a normal functioning member of society.

That's quite a claim. I'm sure that AIDs victims, foster children and the mentally and physically handicapped everywhere will be delighted to hear that they can never become functioning members of society. Somebody better tell Stephen Hawking. Are you sure that you didn't recieve a neo-nazi upbringing as well as a feminist one?

But that is not a good pro-abortion argument any more than an overcrowded and underfunded prison system is a good argument to legalise the most popular crimes.

May I point out that our criminal justice systems have already done that.  Personal example: One of my neighbors, who was not a minor at the time, stabbed someone in the chest.  He was sent to prison for one year and is now home.  Our armed forces, who recently overturned the rule that a new entry must have a clean record free of criminal activity, has just accepted him.  We have lowered our standards quite a bit in the American Correctional system.

You may. Although I didn't say that they hadn't done it.

Now the naming thing, if you guys can sugarcoat you claim that you are "pro-life" then we can say that we are "pro-choice".  Pro-life is misleading especially since President Bush, who has called himself "pro-life" started a war with no reason, at least not one that was true, we can call ourselves "pro-choice", or we can make bumper stickers that say, "pro-life by choice" whatever you prefer.

What? Firstly, I don't and never have called myself pro-life. Secondly, you can't use the actions of George Bush against me or the entire 'pro-life' camp. We are not George Bush.

[GeNuInEwAnNaBe69]

Kev, honestly, I think we are reaching the moot point in our discussion.  We are both arguing about opinions, which by nature can not be proven or disproven.  maybe I will feel more up to it tomorrow, I'm feeling under the weather today, but for the moment I'm going to play the "agree to disagree card" and call it a night.

And before you put words in my mouth, about how I am misleading, take a second to look at what I wrote rather than you're own quickly obtained opinions.  That was my unedited one, I recently edited it, before I read your post, finding it to portray me as something I am not.  I have many family members plagues by both mental and physical illness and can say nothing in the negative for their ability to function in society.  I apologize if my original statement offended anyone that was not my intention.

And don't you dare label me as a neo-nazi, you don't even know me.

I apologize for labeling you as "pro-life" but that is generally what one would call the opposing side of the abortion issue.

[kev222]

Kev, honestly, I think we are reaching the moot point in our discussion.

I realise that, which is why I didn't reply to any of your original opinions.

And before you put words in my mouth, about how I am misleading, take a second to look at what I wrote rather than you're own quickly obtained opinions.

Granted. My bad. I retract that statement. Of course, correct English would have helped avoid the confusion.

And don't you dare label me as a neo-nazi, you don't even know me.

Relax. I'm not labelling you a neo-nazi. Your orignal statement was nazi like, I pointed that out to highlight the absurdity of the claim, not to label you a neo-nazi.

[GeNuInEwAnNaBe69]

Thank you