Do you believe in god?

[kev222]

Plus I read the bible once and wondered why God punished Adam and Eve (Gen 3:5), they did something evil so God punished them...

When what they did evil was to eat from the tree of knowledge...but wouldn't you need knowledge to know the difference between good and evil.

No. God did not necessarily punish Adam and Eve because they did something that they knew was evil. God commanded them not to eat from the tree of knowledge and explained to them the consiquences of disobeying this command (Gen 2:16). Whether they knew the difference between good and evil at that point is irrelevant, they knew the command and the consiquences. This is even assuming that Adam and Eve did not know that disobeying God was wrong from the beginning, although I see no scriptural basis for this assumption, it is clear that not all knowledge came from the tree (as Pete said).

-Kev

[Logikal X]

Plus I read the bible once and wondered why God punished Adam and Eve (Gen 3:5), they did something evil so God punished them...

When what they did evil was to eat from the tree of knowledge...but wouldn't you need knowledge to know the difference between good and evil.

No. God did not necessarily punish Adam and Eve because they did something that they knew was evil. God commanded them not to eat from the tree of knowledge and explained to them the consiquences of disobeying this command (Gen 2:16). Whether they knew the difference between good and evil at that point is irrelevant, they knew the command and the consiquences. This is even assuming that Adam and Eve did not know that disobeying God was wrong from the beginning, although I see no scriptural basis for this assumption, it is clear that not all knowledge came from the tree (as Pete said).

-Kev

*coughcough hence they had the knowledge to not eat from the tree cough cough* /hehe

[Grakthis]

It's worth pointing out that anybody can look at the history and statements of any non-trivial organisation and expose hypocrisy and BS. From Microsoft to The Catholic church to the KKK. Because people misunderstand and misinterpret intentionally for their own ends or unintentionally. The ability to pick these organisations apart only demonstrates people's limitless ignorance. People will lie to further their own agenda and others will follow blindly in ignorance (e.g. the crusades). Deception and ignorance is the problem not the religion itself. Too many people fail to make the seperation between the actions of the so-called "church" and the the religion itself. The seperation should be made but rarely is.

You can always find fault and hypocrisy in major organizations because they all are made up of individuals and individuals sometimes disagree, make mistakes, lie, cheat, steal etc.

If an organization were started by, run by, and ruled by 1 person (or effectively 1 person) FOREVER and that person were pure and good then you wouldn't see major issues.  Hence, Ben and Jerry's for the past 5 years before they sold out.

[Grakthis]

Because, Joey! When you get married, you're supposed to be like, "Yes! I can have sex - Awesome!" And the, ahem, pleasure is the greatness of it, otherwise there'd be no reason to have sex other than reproducing and obviously we don't care about that anymore. Though, urgh, pre-marital sex being badness is one of the few things the Church practice which I'm not for. That statement contradicts half of what I just sad in earlier posts, which goes to show I was just stating what the Church does and doesn't believe.

Sex is pleasureable because evolution "discovered" (used loosely for people who will nitpick at that notion)  that making it pleasureable was a good way to encourage reproduction.  Again, you don't need a "thinking designer" to explain this idea.

No. God did not necessarily punish Adam and Eve because they did something that they knew was evil. God commanded them not to eat from the tree of knowledge and explained to them the consiquences of disobeying this command (Gen 2:16). Whether they knew the difference between good and evil at that point is irrelevant, they knew the command and the consiquences. This is even assuming that Adam and Eve did not know that disobeying God was wrong from the beginning, although I see no scriptural basis for this assumption, it is clear that not all knowledge came from the tree (as Pete said).

The way I see it, the kind of God who would say "Hey, you can have ANYTHING in this garden you want EXCEPT this.  Don't eat this."  Is just out to get you anyways.  Why put the fucking apples in the garden in the first place if you are just gonna tell them they can't have one?  God WANTED Adam and Eve to fail?  If God is GOD then God knew Eve would con Adam into eating the apple so God did it intentionally so mankind would fall.

Therfore, I blame God.

*gives God the finger*

[rosieposy87]

And Andrew's right about the whole indulgences thing. However, that was a hell of a long time ago, no one should be shit-faced about it unless they were arund in that day.

Oh well that is the biggest load of BS i have heard just about ever. "Oh no, i wasn't around during the Holocaust therefore i can't say it was wrong at aaaaall!" i do despair...

The way I see it, the kind of God who would say "Hey, you can have ANYTHING in this garden you want EXCEPT this.  Don't eat this."  Is just out to get you anyways.  Why put the fucking apples in the garden in the first place if you are just gonna tell them they can't have one?  God WANTED Adam and Eve to fail?  If God is GOD then God knew Eve would con Adam into eating the apple so God did it intentionally so mankind would fall.

Therfore, I blame God.

*gives God the finger*

Oh, i told y'all don't make andrew bring out his favourite quote!! Its coming soon, i can feel it in my ermmm waters...

[kev222]

You can always find fault and hypocrisy in major organizations because they all are made up of individuals and individuals sometimes disagree, make mistakes, lie, cheat, steal etc.

If an organization were started by, run by, and ruled by 1 person (or effectively 1 person) FOREVER and that person were pure and good then you wouldn't see major issues.  Hence, Ben and Jerry's for the past 5 years before they sold out.

I completely agree. I just thought it worthwhile to make the point. I forget the number of times I've heard people emotionally argue that Christianity is untrue because somebody acting in in Christ's name did something terrible in the past.

The way I see it, the kind of God who would say "Hey, you can have ANYTHING in this garden you want EXCEPT this. Don't eat this." Is just out to get you anyways. Why put the fucking apples in the garden in the first place if you are just gonna tell them they can't have one? God WANTED Adam and Eve to fail? If God is GOD then God knew Eve would con Adam into eating the apple so God did it intentionally so mankind would fall.

Therfore, I blame God.

*gives God the finger*

Taking the Bible as a whole, as it should be taken. Then, despite Adam and Eve's failing, God has provided a open escape route through the work of Christ. The choice is still their for those who still want God and for those who don't. It's not as if our fates are entirely bound to that unreversable past event. Why did God do it this way? I don't know. But the door isn't shut for anyone. So in my eyes, if we fail like Adam and Eve, it's ourselves to blame. Blaming God for putting apples in the garden is like blaming KaZaA for the fact that you steal music, or blaming Colt for the fact that you shot someone. Like in every area of live, we should take responsibility for our decisions and their consiquences. Not whine that we only did it because we had oppurtunity to.

Oh, i told y'all don't make andrew bring out his favourite quote!! Its coming soon, i can feel it in my ermmm waters...

*prods Andrew with a stick* go on say it, say it. (...I actually don't know what it is)

-Kev

Edit: I'm not sure whether Colt is a firearms manufacturer or just the name of gun. So for the purposes of the analogy, pretend it's the former.

[Si]

This is gonna be such a long thread with the same remarks, only said differently, over and over
Kewl!

*prods Andrew with a stick* go on say it, say it. (...I actually don't know what it is)

-Kev

lol
I have no clue either

[kev222]

This is gonna be such a long thread with the same remarks, only said differently, over and over
Kewl!

*prods Andrew with a stick* go on say it, say it. (...I actually don't know what it is)

-Kev

lol
I have no clue either

If it's anything other than a Homer Simpson quote, I'm going to be dissapointed.

[Si]

lmao
Me likes Homer Simpson
*waits for the oh-so-famous-quote by  Andrew

[Tia]

lmao
Me likes Homer Simpson
*waits for the oh-so-famous-quote by  Andrew

*waits with you*

[Grakthis]

Taking the Bible as a whole, as it should be taken. Then, despite Adam and Eve's failing, God has provided a open escape route through the work of Christ. The choice is still their for those who still want God and for those who don't. It's not as if our fates are entirely bound to that unreversable past event. Why did God do it this way? I don't know. But the door isn't shut for anyone. So in my eyes, if we fail like Adam and Eve, it's ourselves to blame. Blaming God for putting apples in the garden is like blaming KaZaA for the fact that you steal music, or blaming Colt for the fact that you shot someone. Like in every area of live, we should take responsibility for our decisions and their consiquences. Not whine that we only did it because we had oppurtunity to.

The difference in your analogy being that Colt doesn't KNOW their guns are going to be used to murder someone.  God KNEW that his forbidden apples would be eaten and he put them there anyways.

If you KNEW that your little sister/child/mom was going to trip and fall on a rollerskate, fall down the stairs and die would you LEAVE the rollerskate in the hallway?!?

No.  You would move it.

The God as portrayed in the old testemen is constantly murdering and killing.  He took sides in wars, sent plagues, destoryed cities and even summoned animals to kill the children of the enemies of his 'chosen' people.

I refuse to believe in a "God" that would do things like that.  Any higher power that would isn't "God" it's a god.

*prods Andrew with a stick* go on say it, say it. (...I actually don't know what it is)

I'm not sure which quote she's looking for.  I have a bunch.  There's my favorite douglas Adams quote that goes....

"God puts an apple tree in the middle of the Garden of Eden and says, do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush shouting "Gotcha." It wouldn't have made any difference if they hadn't eaten it... because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll get you in the end. "

Edit: I'm not sure whether Colt is a firearms manufacturer or just the name of gun. So for the purposes of the analogy, pretend it's the former.

Colt is a firearms manufacturer.

[kev222]

The difference in your analogy being that Colt doesn't KNOW their guns are going to be used to murder someone.  God KNEW that his forbidden apples would be eaten and he put them there anyways.

I fail to be convinced that God having prior knowledge of a persons decision effects that persons ability to make free choice. He knew, but they still chose it. Even if God had not put the tree in the garden, being GOD He would know what they would choose if He did plant it. Why should we expect to prance robotically through life shielded from our own decisions?

If you KNEW that your little sister/child/mom was going to trip and fall on a rollerskate, fall down the stairs and die would you LEAVE the rollerskate in the hallway?!?

It would depend on what exactly I knew about death and beyond. Also what I knew about my sister's/child's/mother's future if I did move the skate. Of course, as I am, I would move the skate but my situation is hardly comparable to God's.

Colt is a firearms manufacturer.

Thanks.

-Kev

[Grakthis]

I fail to be convinced that God having prior knowledge of a persons decision effects that persons ability to make free choice. He knew, but they still chose it. Even if God had not put the tree in the garden, being GOD He would know what they would choose if He did plant it. Why should we expect to prance robotically through life shielded from our own decisions?

I'm not talking about modern times where sin is an accepted thing.  I am talking about the setting of the garden of eden where supposedly there was no sin and life was perfect.  Mankind would never die nor want for food or happiness.

In this perfect place, WHY would God put something dangerous and evil?

I am not saying this affected Adam's free will in any way.  Adam could have still chosen not to eat the apples.  But what is the logical reason for placing something so harmful in eden?

[Scotty]

I mean I don't get it if heaven is your perfect place wouldn't you eventually get bored of perfection cause life would be boring if everything was perfect there would be no challenge.

[xxjenniferxx]

If you KNEW this poll was going to start with a debate.....why did you come in...blah blah blah...