abortion

[milla]

I think it's kind of like legalising prostitution (heh...let me explain..):

Obviously in an ideal world all contraception would be 100% infallible and nobody would ever have an unplanned or unwanted child, but this is never going to happen. 'Backstreet' abortions are incredibly dangerous and no woman should have to go through them. They often result in death for both mother and baby. Basically, if a woman decides she must have an abortion, it is going to happen somehow, and the reason it needs to be legalised is so that it can be regulated. This means it can be done in safe, sanitary conditions with the minimal amount of risk and distress for the woman.

If it is made illegal and the woman/girl really has to have one, (and there could be all kind of situations, such as fear that her parents will kick her out if she still lives at home, or that her boyfriend will dump her or something, there could be anything) then she will essentially be putting her body and her life into the hands of a criminal, which nobody should ever have to do.

The reason I say it is like legalising prostitution is that that is another unpleasant truth that will always go on, but if it were legalised it could be regulated, and it would be illegal for the women to suffer abuse from their *pimps*, or not use condoms etc . If something is going to happen anyway and cannot be supressed then we should at least make efforts to make it as safe and well regulated as it can be. Alcohol can kill you easily, but when it was made illegal it caused huge crime waves . At least now (although I'm doubtful about how much effect it has) we can try to educate people about drinking responsibly, not drinking and driving etc, rather than simply pretending that it doesn't exist.

Abortion, for me, is a completely impossible issue to come to one conclusion on, I worry about too many people using it as a method of birth control, but I think it is far too complex an issue to simply ban it completely. That would not make the problem of unwanted babies go away, that is merely a symptom of the actual problem. Technically I am pro choice, but if I got pregnant accidentally I'm not sure I could bring myself to have an abortion.

Finally, I don't remember exactly what the rules for abortion are in the US - in England they are legal but only during the first trimester (thats the first 7 weeks i think?) - is it the same for America?

[kev222]

Abortion, for me, is a completely impossible issue to come to one conclusion on

It is difficult. Personally I don't think it is impossible, although certainly there are those who would never accept the conclusion, but it is difficult. The reason for the difficulty is that the point of contention is a moral one and, when it comes to morality, almost everyone has a unique frame of reference.

Your argument generalises nicely to almost any crime. In an ideal world nobody would be motivated to rape, but that is never going to happen. Legalisation and regulation of rape would make it much safer. Most people hold that such a violation of someone else's will is sufficiently immoral to outweigh the benefits of it's legalisation. Which is why there is no debate on legalising rape. However, if somebody did believe rape to be morally acceptable, then they can argue rapist's "pro-choice" in a similar way to how the people in this thread argue abortion "pro-choice" and who is anybody to tell that person otherwise? What makes their moral reference frame any more or less accurate than another?

My point is that there's really no point making an argument for abortion from the drawbacks of criminisation, women's rights, the discomfort of pregnacy or anything else. There will always be those, like me, who maintain that the termination of an under X week old unborn baby is sufficiently immoral to render those points insignificant. Likewise, there's no point in me making a moral argument against abortion because there will always be those who, because of what they believe, don't consider the termination of an under X week old unborn baby sufficiently immoral, or immoral at all.

All standards of morality are based on a belief system of some kind (which may or may not be a religious belief). Like it or not, the abortion debate is a belief system debate. If you can't make a case for your belief system, then you can't make a case for your stance on abortion. Most people can't.

[i_miss_santa]

it all depends on how she got preg and if the baby or mother is healthy(pro choice/santity of life/quality of life)..sorry i just did this in RE today lol.

[Xenophanes]

No, it depends on whether or not the unborn child is a human being.

[Manda]

Pro Choice.  :wink:

some quotes about Pro Choice I liked:
"The opposing argument is that a woman should
have the right to decide whether or not to bear a child."
"Under the 14th Amendment's "personal liberty", women are
given the right to receive an abortion."
"The state can't interfere in the private
lives of a citizen."
"A man can withdraw from a relationship as soon as he finds
out about a pregnancy. There is no question of his
involvement after that; he has made his choice."
"contraceptives fail, and because they are not always available or possible to use,
abortion is necessary if people are to be able to determine
whether and when to "bear or beget a child"
"Women choose to have an abortion
because pregnancy and childbirth can prevent them from
keeping their jobs, from feeding their families, and from
serving others in ways they consider necessary and
appropriate."


"If a woman cannot choose to terminate an unwanted
pregnancy, she is denied the right to the "possession and
control" of her own body. One of the most sacred rights of
common law is to choose and if a woman can't do this, then
her most important possession is taken away. Abortion isn't
only a woman's right, it's a woman's choice."

[zurielshimon]

I'm not even going to suggest that I'm taking a position in this issue, but I feel I have to clarify something, and perhaps make a point with it.  Whether or not a woman has the right to possession and control of her own body (and I do feel that she probably should), that does not automatically, in and of itself, give her the right to terminate a pregnancy.  At most, it gives her the decision whether or not to use her own body to produce the child.  Say what you will about playing God and the expense and edge-of-practicality of a fetal transplant, but regardless of how we feel or believe, it's probably soon to be somewhat common procedure for women who do not wish to give birth, but at the same time do not wish to give death.

Again, don't infer from this post that I'm stating a position on abortion, but I don't personally believe anyone has the right to kill another human except in the case of defense of self or family.  Is a fetus a human and is abortion the killing of a human?  I will not make that decision here.

But to relate things, if a woman doesn't want you to ride in her car because she believes you will damage her car, make it look bad, or annoy her during the trip, she has the right to deny you a ride, but she doesn't necessarily have the right to keep you from getting where you want to go.  If this is true of her car, how much moreso should it be true of her own body!

[kev222]

contraceptives fail, and because they are not always available or possible to use, abortion is necessary if people are to be able to determine whether and when to "bear or beget a child"

Hardly. If you really don't want to give birth and don't trust contraceptives or your ability to use them, then don't have sex. If you do decide to have sex and get pregnant, then welcome to the real world, actions have consequences. Just because it's possible in this case to offload the consequences of your own actions onto the unborn baby doesn't make it right to do so.

[Manda]

thats when abortion comes in.

[Will]

"Under the 14th Amendment's "personal liberty", women are given the right to receive an abortion."

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Sure, you go tell yourself that. That assertion only works if you accept a priori that abortion is a right, which it really isn't under any sort of constitutional standard (Roe v. Wade was a political decision, not one based in law or even sound jurisprudence. It will be overturned.). It's hardly an argument that it is a right.

[Manda]

"Under the 14th Amendment's "personal liberty", women are given the right to receive an abortion."

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Sure, you go tell yourself that. That assertion only works if you accept a priori that abortion is a right, which it really isn't under any sort of constitutional standard (Roe v. Wade was a political decision, not one based in law or even sound jurisprudence. It will be overturned.). It's hardly an argument that it is a right.

It will never be overturned, so you keep telling yourself that.  :wink:

[kev222]

thats when abortion comes in.

I heard you the first time.

[Manda]

and a second time is even better.

[tylor2000]

I'm pro-abortion.  That would be the extreme beyond pro-choice, where it is beyond having a choice and in support of abortion in any circumstance.  Well, just about any circumstance.  I believe that a baby in a womb is not mature enough of an animal to be a human, with all the rights and privleges that go along with that, untill birth.

Sounds pretty out there, huh?

[kev222]

Sounds pretty out there, huh?

Not too out there. It seems to be a reasonably popular opinion these days (at least in this country). And, if history is any indication, it's an opinion that's only going to get more prevalent. Although you are probably ahead of the curve.

[PianoGirl4444]

I'm pro-abortion.  That would be the extreme beyond pro-choice, where it is beyond having a choice and in support of abortion in any circumstance.  Well, just about any circumstance.  I believe that a baby in a womb is not mature enough of an animal to be a human, with all the rights and privleges that go along with that, untill birth.

Sounds pretty out there, huh?

I TOTALLY agree with you.