abortion

[tylor2000]

Sounds pretty out there, huh?

Not too out there. It seems to be a reasonably popular opinion these days (at least in this country). And, if history is any indication, it's an opinion that's only going to get more prevalent. Although you are probably ahead of the curve.

Unfortunately I'm behind the curve for reading the thread.  I just posted this without reading the thread too much.  Wow, I didn't know so many of you thought the same way(or similiarly.)

You know it is kind of a backward way of thinking.  My position is based on a way of thinking which follows the idea based on the observation of how your right to free speech doesn't begin untill you can actually speak.  Minors don't obtain certain rights untill they reach a certain age and maturity.  

Untill you are an individual your right to individual life doesn't start untill it occurs.  Untill then your life is granted.

Argue on...

I'm pro-choice all the way. Actually the best description of my views is that I'm Pro-death because I'm pro-choice, pro-euthanasia, and pro-death penalty. The only death I'm against is the fighting of wars that are unnecessary.

I don't think being religious has anything to do with the issue because there's plenty death that God sanctions according to the Bible.

 :lol: Someone likes Bill Mahr   :lol:

You're pro anything that will get people off the streets and get traffic moving more freely, right? :lol:

[milla]

Your argument generalises nicely to almost any crime.

No it doesn't.

Rape = assault, the reason why it is rape as opposed to consensual sex is that the woman (or man..) does not want it to happen. In the case of prostitution, the woman (technically) is ok with the man having sex with her (although in many cases it IS rape due to kidnap/trafficking etc, hence why legalising would allow this to be regulated somehow, and it would not be so easy to trick or force somebody into it).

Legalising rape is nothing like legalising abortion, the point with abortion is that you have to decide for somebody who cannot decide for themselves (the unborn baby). Rape and any kind of assault, where the person is being abused and obviously doesn't want it to happen, is really rather more of a clear cut issue because they are there to SAY what happened and what they felt about it - the baby is not.

[kev222]

Your argument generalises nicely to almost any crime.

No it doesn't.

Yes it does. You've presented a valid difference between abortion and rape, that victims of rape can decide for themselves and victims of abortion can not. But that difference does not affect the generalisation.

Your initial argument
* demand for abortion will always exist
* illegal abortion is dangerous
* abortion can be made safer via legalisation and regulation

The same argument for rape
* demand for rape will always exist
* illegal rape is dangerous
* rape can be made safer via legalisation and regulation

The will of the victim is irrelvant.

Obviously I'm not saying that rape should be legalised, just that the "legalisation will make [insert controversial issue here] safer" argument alone is absurd. Safety clearly isn't the only factor (if it was, then rape should be legalised). There are moral factors on which nobody has an equal frame of reference and consiquently on which nobody can agree, which is why the abortion debate never ends. It's a foolish waste of time to continue debating the issue without realising this simple fact.

[PianoGirl4444]

Your argument generalises nicely to almost any crime.

No it doesn't.

Yes it does. You've presented a valid difference between abortion and rape, that victims of rape can decide for themselves and victims of abortion can not. But that difference does not affect the generalisation.

Your initial argument
* demand for abortion will always exist
* illegal abortion is dangerous
* abortion can be made safer via legalisation and regulation

The same argument for rape
* demand for rape will always exist
* illegal rape is dangerous
* rape can be made safer via legalisation and regulation

The will of the victim is irrelvant.

Obviously I'm not saying that rape should be legalised, just that the "legalisation will make [insert controversial issue here] safer" argument *alone* is absurd.

How could rape become "safer" ??

[kev222]

How could rape become "safer" ??

Well, the specifics of rape are largely irrelevant to my point (most crimes will work in its place) and its not really the kind of thing I'd enjoy discussing at any great length but, for example, rape could be licenced and a condition of the licence is regular STD tests.

Use your imagination.

[zurielshimon]

Would you also suggest that theft be licenced and regulated, such as that thieves should be required to keep accurate records so that victims of theft would be able to track down and repurchase their stolen items?! :?

[rosieposy87]

How could rape become "safer" ??

Well, the specifics of rape are largely irrelevant to my point (most crimes will work in its place) and its not really the kind of thing I'd enjoy discussing at any great length but, for example, rape could be licenced and a condition of the licence is regular STD tests.

Use your imagination.

Sounds like legalised prostitution to me! Which does exist.

[milla]

Your argument generalises nicely to almost any crime.

No it doesn't.

Yes it does.

It really doesn't...because if you apply it to rape it makes no sense, if you apply it to abortion then it does. If i had been suggesting legalising ALL crimes "legalisation will make [insert controversial issue here] safer" then i would have said that, as such i was talking about abortion. The reason why abortion is an issue is to do with whether or not the baby can decide, whether the woman has more right to life/the baby has a right to life yet, if it was just out & out murder then it wouldn't be an issue.

'The will of the victim is irrelvant.' Hardly. if that was true there would be no such thing as rape, only consensual sex. Obviously the will of the victim is relevant as that is what turns it from sex to a crime.

Rape is not just dangerous, it's illegal because it's forcing trauma and distress upon the victim. 'There are moral factors on which nobody has an equal frame of reference and consiquently on which nobody can agree, which is why the abortion debate never ends.' precisely, hence the whole 'issue' of abortion. Rape, murder etc are obviously wrong and there is no debate about them being illegal. It is precisely because abortion is  a wholly different and much more complex issue that we are having a debate and that my arguement does not generalise nicely to any crime.

[kev222]

Would you also suggest that theft be licenced and regulated, such as that thieves should be required to keep accurate records so that victims of theft would be able to track down and repurchase their stolen items?! :?

No.

How could rape become "safer" ??

Well, the specifics of rape are largely irrelevant to my point (most crimes will work in its place) and its not really the kind of thing I'd enjoy discussing at any great length but, for example, rape could be licenced and a condition of the licence is regular STD tests.

Use your imagination.

Sounds like legalised prostitution to me! Which does exist.

The big difference is consent. Rape has one non-consenting party.

[kev222]

it really doesn't... *snip* ...my arguement does not generalise nicely to any crime.

I know that my articulation is generally poor.  Even so, your latest post (much of which I agree with and is entirely compatible with the point I've been trying to make) demonstrates a large misunderstanding of my arguments. Perhaps it's my fault, perahps not. Either way, I give up. Let others read the posts and decide what they will.

[milla]

oh well nevermind...

[kev222]

oh well nevermind...

I'm sure we're both sick of typing the word rape anyway :-?

[GeNuInEwAnNaBe69]

It's kind of strange that for once Kev isn't yelling back at me on this forum!

[kev222]

It's kind of strange that for once Kev isn't yelling back at me on this forum!

Uh-oh, the neo-nazi is back